DING DONG! How to trace a bellringer?

[Sue1]

Does anyone know if there is a central organization where bellringers names may be kept - I am sure I have heard that there is/was a centralised one. It also crosses my mind that Cathedrals may keep these records. I am looking for records between 1797-1840 in Lincolnshire (Stamford) and Chelmsford, Essex.

Sue

[Anne in Carlisle]

OK .... I'm your bell ringing friend on here!

I'm afraid the records may be very patchy and dependent on the individual tower or Diocese. If your person rang peals you will be luckier because there is a pretty complete list even from those early times. Can you give me some names, places and dates to work with?

Anne

[Sue1]

Thanks Ann.
The chap I thought (optimistically) I may be able to trace was living in Church Chase in Great Baddow, Essex and he normally rang at St. Mary the Virgin, Gt. Baddow. They still have a plaque in the bell tower with his name on it and his son and grandson. His name was James Rowland. I gathered from the Tower Captain that he would have been quite accomplished by the sound of him. They have nothing else on him. He rang the tenor.
I have today found him (and I can't find it again for some reason) in an old Campanology magazine online dated 13.1.1897 where it stated he rang on 23 January 1815 at Writtle, Essex. He rang there again on 31st May 1819. I believe he had rung in competitions in Essex including Chelmsford Cathedral and wondered if the Cathedral had possible records of bellringers.
He was born in 1765-1771 possibly in Wales (Montgomeryshire) but was a Tailor and in the Militia - ringing in 1815 was not long after the Napoleonic War, the last battle he was in was Salamanca c1812 in which he had been injured. I am hoping to find a definite place of birth or Regiment he was in (or any other snippet of information) - I am being unrealistically optimistic I imagine

I don't know if it even possible to trace someone in this way and I can't imagine personal details would be needed for bellringing but I haven't had much success through the usual channels. I am sure I read of a bellringers guild somewhere, possibly in London but have never been able to find it online.

[Sue1]

I should have said also that he DID ring Peals.
I don't know where he learned to ring.
He died in 1846 in Great Baddow, Essex and, along with other family that had died, including his first wife, was buried in the graveyard of St. Mary the Virgin, Great Baddow, Essex. I understand that on one occasion he rang and ?conducted/called for 5hrs+ - can't find the piece of paper I was sent about it but it may have been a record. Could have been Bob Major or similar.
I don't have any proof that he rang in Stamford, Lincs but he must have learned his skill somewhere.

[Anne in Carlisle]

Funnily enough I'm just back from Essex. I did ring every day but not at Great Baddow!
I don't think there's any more liklihood of any records of his ringing at Chelmsford than any other tower, I'm afraid. Also I would be surprised to find personal details in any records UNLESS there was an obituary written in an Association or tower magazine. However I think the timescale may be too early for that.
There are several bell ringing forums, including one called 'Bell Historians'. My OH gets messages from that and I'll ask him to see if they can come up with anything.
You are correct in thinking there are national societies as well as local ones. The best known are the College Youths and the Cumberlands. If he was a member of one of those there might be something in their records. If the Bell Historians can't come up with anything we can ask them.
Anne
Edit to ask ... What connection is there to Stamford?? Why wouldn't he have learned to ring in Essex?

[Sue1]

Many thanks indeed Anne. I know very little about this chap in many ways. The bellringing bit was a bonus.
Re Stamford, Lincs ..............It is the second place I can definitely find him (with proof) - his first child was baptised at Stamford All Saints in 1797 - have documentation on that - says he was a Tailor.
Other definite placement is St. Michael's Church, Bishops Stortford where he married for the first time to an Elizabeth Joceylin/Joslin in 1795. Have been in touch with Tower there (quite a while ago) and they know nothing about him ringing there although they were very pleasant and helpful.
Next definite place is a second marriage for him held at St. Mary's G. Baddow in 1815 and in 1846 his own death and burial in same place.
James Rowland - bellringing.jpg

I have found a second document from the Tower Captain at G. Baddow which shows that although that seemed to be HIS church, he and his son and G/son were quite active ?in the Chelmsford circuit. Can't add second doc at moment.
Sue ................have you ever rung at St. Peter's, Wisbech, Cambs?

[Anne in Carlisle]

No, I've not rung at Wisbech .... maybe someday!

Do you have a date of death for James Rowland. I presume you have his death certificate?
What were the names of his ringing sons and grandsons?

I presume you have found the three peals he rang at Writtle in 1815, 1817 and 1819. Ringing the tenor to Bob Major is quite a skill and he must have been reasonably good at it for them to keep including him in the band. To achieve sufficient expertise to do this would have taken at least a year of tuition and practice and more likely up to five years. The long peal at Great Baddow would have been very gruelling!

Will get on the case later today.
Anne

[Sue1]

James Rowland's actual date of death (have certificate) is 17 July 1846 - he died at Great Baddow, Essex. I found the 1815 and 1819 peals but not the 1817 peal for them.

His son referred to as William snr b Oct 1807 - d Jan 1872 joined the military on - 30 July 1824 - probably did little or no more ringing as his service seemed to be continually overseas but as he was only 16 when he joined he wouldn't have gone overseas straight away - probably went 1826. He did not live in Essex again and died in Alverstoke, Hampshire.

William jnr - there are two who could fit this description - William snr did not live in the area again after he joined up so it is not HIS son. The alternatives are - and they are both grandsons of James:
William Rowland b 1871 Great Baddow - d 1939 Chelmsford, Essex - possible but least likely one
William Rowland b 1844 Great Baddow - d 1921 Chelmsford - (son of Angelo one of James' sons) - this William grew up next door to his grandfather in Church Chase, Gt. Baddow - I suspect he is the one mentioned.

James didn't have a lot of time in Great Baddow to learn his skills before his name appears in Peals.
He went off (supposedly) to the Napoleonic Wars - and was, according to a document I have, injured in the hip at Salamanca - this battle was 1812 so presumably he was sent home. This info comes from an old handwritten document by another of his sons which was written after James Rowland had died. I am beginning to think it is not entirely accurate since his wife had an awful lot of children while he was away!
As mentioned above, I know from church records of his first child's baptism, that James was not living in Essex before 1800 (or appears not to have been) - the baptism was at All Saints, Stamford. His marriage 2 years previously was in Hertfordshire - neither his wife nor (as far as I can find) he came from Herts.
A lot of folk on ancestry are researching James Rowland and no one can actually be definite about findings - there is some anecdotal evidence that he was Welsh and if he was, I suspect the patrynamic naming system is the cause of the problem finding him. It also means his dob is suspect and is taken from the 1841 census, the only one he was on. I wondered whether he learned his skills in Wales or Stamford. The problem with Wales is that there is no absolutely definite birth place!

http://mediasvc.ancestry.co.uk/v2/image/namespaces/1093/media/4c877211-4e18-4527-86ce-b300eef63c3e?client=TreesUI&maxSide=500

[Anne in Carlisle]

Great, that gives me some background to ask with. Am off out ringing (again!) but will get a query to the Bell Historians tonight. As you might guess they love a challenge about ringing history.

Given the dates James was supposed to be away I would say it is pretty certain that he learned to ring somewhere else and came back to it in later life.
Anne

[Sue1]

Many thanks for following this up for me. If he learned as a teenager, it was probably in Wales - it is said in the aforementioned document that "joined up" in Newtown, Montgomeryshire. Sue

[Anne in Carlisle]

Hi Sue
Unfortunately the Bell Historians did not come up with anything. In fact there were no replies which rather suggests to me that there are no records to be found because I am sure they would have been curious about the long length peal. In case you didn't find them all, these are the peals I found.

Known peals in which James Rowland rang.
14 Dec 1815; Writtle; 6000 Bob Major; rang tenor
20 Mar 1817; Writtle; 5040 Bob Major; rang tenor
7 Mar 1819; Great Baddow; 10,080 Bob Major; rang tenor. “The Quarter Peal”
31 May 1819; Writtle; 5040 Bob Major; rang tenor

As you can see in each case he rang the tenor (biggest bell of the 8). The 5040 peals (that is 5040 different changes such as 21436587) each took just over 3 hours to ring (no stopping!!). The 6000 peal took nearly 4 hours. The long length of 10,080 (effectively two peals) took 5 hours 50 minutes. It was called "The Quarter Peal" because it was a quarter of the length of the maximum number of changes on 8 bells (40,320). Ringers today call a quarter peal 1260 changes (quarter of the normal length of 5040)

The tenor at Writtle was at that time 18cwt (nearly 1 ton) so the ringing would have been a little slower. When they went for the long length they chose the lighter bells at Great Baddow where the tenor weighs 14 cwt.

Ringing peals like this demands physical and mental stamina. Concentrating for this length of time is difficult, never mind ringing the bell! I think it is highly likely that they had some attempts which failed because of mistakes in the sequences by one or more of the ringers, so the four listed above just show the successful ones (the failed attempts are never recorded!

Although James did not conduct any of the peals he was clearly a very competent ringer otherwise the rest of the band would not have wanted him to ring the tenor every time. He would have taken at least two or three years of learning to get to this standard, probably more. Even today ringing a tenor of this weight is taxing. In 1815 it would have been more so because the bell bearings were not as easy swinging. The fact that he could do this, and was chosen to do it, does not suggest an injured man to me!

Sorry not to have come up with any fresh ‘evidence’ but unfortunately James was just about 60 years too early in his ringing exploits to appear in other records.

Anne

[Sue1]

Hi Ann, Many thanks indeed for looking into this for me. I am extremely grateful.
I must admit I wondered about his injury (received at Salamanca during Napoleonic War in 1813) which was supposed to be a severe injury to the hip! Couldn't perhaps have been that bad or he was very lucky to be able to stand for the length of time to ring such a peal. I have never rung no. 8 but have rung 6 and I think a heavier bell is easier to control than a "light" one - I hasten to add that my bellringing was shortlived!
I read somewhere recently that the word "bob" i.e. in "bob major" referred to a shilling! I wonder whether perhaps bellringers were paid in those days. Attached is a copy of the framed plaque which still hangs today in St. Mary the Virgin, Great Baddow, belltower. It refers to the Peal rung there on 7.3.1819 which you have quoted above. I attach: James Rowland - Bellringing at St. Mary's, Great Baddow, Essex - 1819.jpg
I think I and many others who are researching him are going to have to resign ourselves to the fact that we are not going to find any more about him.
Renewed grateful thanks, Sue

[Anne in Carlisle]

Ha! Sorry I didn't realise you knew a little of what it means to be a ringer! Yes, a heavier bell is a little easier for a novice than a light one. However ring an 18cwt tenor for 4 hours on plain bearings takes STAMINA!!!
Anne

[Sue1]

Hi Ann, Don't be sorry! My ringing attempts were short! I have absolutely no sense of timing
Sue

[Sue1]

Hi again Anne, This is for interest rather than asking you to do anything!
I have identified each one on my Tree and added the details - it may look strange in print as my "ink" is running out! I had thought William snr was James Rowland's son - he is not - he is a nephew. In the Ringing at Gt. Baddow on 6.12.1902 it says in brackets "Angelo is the writer". He is James Rowland's son by his second wife ................he did, however, die in 1900 in Chelmsford Workhouse so must have written whatever he wrote at least 2 years before he died.
(I did, I am ashamed to say, have this information in my possession and it was lost among the mountain of papers that seem to be accumulating).

Sue

[Sue1]

Hi Ann, I have, I am embarrassed to say, found a more explanatory document of the Rowland's bellringing prowess which I had among a pile of paperwork unnoticed! Thought you may be interested. Have re-typed it as the original comes out in minute print:
"James and your George's (b1819) nephew William (sen. b1844) and his son William (Jun. b1871) were apparently all bellringers in the Essex Association. There are a number of plaques/boards commemorating significant peals in the chambers of various mid-Essex churches, e.g:

St. Mary's Great Baddow:

March 7th 1819: Eight ringers including James (bell 8 tenor) rang Quarter Peal of Bob Major 10,080 changes in 5hrs

[U]November 1st 1890[/U]: Eight ringers including William (Jun) (bell 3) rang peal of bob Major 5,056 changes in 2hrs 56mins.

December 6th 1902: Eight ringers led by William (Jun) rang Holts Original Grandshire Triples in 2hrs 59mins.
(ANGELO IS THE WRITER) - [Angelo Michael Rowland is James Rowland's son from his second marriage. Sadly he died in Chelmsford Workhouse in 1900]

St. Mary's Chelmsford (now Cathedral)

January 23rd 1815 Eight ringers including James (bell 8 tenor) rang Peal of Bob Major 6,000 changes in 3hrs 45mins
May 21st 1888 Ten ringers including William (sen) (bell 5) rang Peal of Grandshire Cators 5,021 changes in 3hrs 15mins
[U]October 3rd 1903[U] Eight ringers led by William (Jun) (bell 2) rang Holts Original Grandshire Triples in 3hrs.
May 14th 1904 Eight ringers including William (Jun) (bell 2) rang Treble Bob Major 5,088 changes in 3hrs 18mins
June 9th 1904 Eight ringers led by William (Jun) rang Holts Original Grandshire Triples in 3hrs 6mins.

St. Mary & Lawrence, Great Waltham

March 30th 1891 Eight ringers led by William (sen) (bell 2) rang Holts Original Grandshire Triples in 3hrs 13mins

Sue
PS please could moderator remove post above this which is an unreadable duplicate - sorry!

[Anne in Carlisle]

Its interesting that the list confirms what I had thought. There was much enthusiastic ringing in the early 1810s and then quite a big gap. Either the initial enthusiasm waned or they got too old to ring long peals any more, or maybe the bells or the vicar became difficult! The new wave of peals coincides with the formation of the Essex Association, along with many other ringing associations and Guilds in the late 1800s.
Been ringing myself this afternoon Bristol Surprise Major and Plain Bob Triples but only 1260 changes of each, which last about 45 to 50 minutes.
Anne

[Sue1]

I suspect that bellringing, as well as being a good physical "workout" also keeps the brain alert since you have to really keep your wits about you.
When we have travelled I have noticed that very few church bells are to be heard overseas - mostly, Russia, Holland, etc are Carrilon type bells which may be electronic but in very many places it just doesn't happen at all. It would be such a shame if bellringing as it is known here were to fade out.
Keep ringing, Sue

[Uncle John]

Change ringing is a British peculiarity. By now there must be some British churches with electronic "bellringers". Just put in a CD and off it goes for hours. A modern version of the Jacquard cards for fairground organs.

[Anne in Carlisle]

Yes but they sound horrible, nothing like proper ringing, which is entirely different sounding to chiming.
Anne