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Mbrady
30-04-15, 18:59
My Uncle (who I only recently met) is 83 and not in the best of health. He never met his mother. He was brought up by his father, aunt and grandma...his mother left when he was just a baby and no one has any ideas why.....I would love to be able give any information I could about what happened to her.

I have her name, dob, father and mothers name, and I know who her 3 siblings were, all 100% I've been researching this for weeks...but atm my head is beginning to melt haha!

She was born on the 9th October 1913 in Coventry and her name was --Nancy Bell--

Her father was called Thomas Alexander Bell born in Newcastle upon Tyne 1888 (Married 1910 Newcastle Tyne) Boarding in Coventry on the 1911 Census (fibbed single haha!)

Her Mother was Elizabeth Luthwaite born in Newcastle Upon Tyne 1889, (married in 1910 Newcastle Tyne) Visitor with her family Morpeth Bedlington on the 1911 Census (Married 1 year)

Brother John Bell born Morpeth, Northumberland in 1910

Brother Norman Bell born Coventry Warwickshire in 1912

There is another brother but to late to be included here and the 100 year rule...

The last known address I have for her is 242 Armstrong Road, Benwell Newcastle, this was on her 1933 marriage certificate. Married a Thomas Brady

On the 1933-34 electoral register her family (Thomas,Elizabeth,John&Norman)were living at this address, but by 1935-36 they had left and someone else had moved in.

Nancys 1933 marriage to Thomas never lasted. even by a week by the looks of it, she is even listed as Bell on my uncles birth certifcate and not Brady..which I found unusual as the birth was registered months after they were married. Or this may be normal..I dont know..

Does anyone know how how I could proceed? Find out what year she died or if she remarried? Any help would be appreciated..

mb

Olde Crone Holden
30-04-15, 19:19
You are right, it is odd - the birth was indexed in both names (Brady and Bell) which normally indicates the parents are not married to each other. A possible explanation is that she registered the child as if she were not married, so that she could take the child and leave without the father's permission, but perhaps he rumbled her and insisted the birth information was corrected. Where did you get the copy of the BC? (I mean, recently or is it the original?)

OC

Mbrady
30-04-15, 19:41
Hi OC, thanks for the reply..:)

I ordered the BC from the GRO in January this year. Their address was even different on this certificate, he was, Father of 43 Cambridge Street, and she was 242 Armstrong Road.

Another thing to maybe help explain possibly why names were like this, I know Thomas Brady married a Annie Humble in 1930, and on his marriage to Nancy in 1933 his status is Bachelor no mention of Miss Humble. And then he married again in 1944 (D-Day)to a Mary Callaghan and his status on this certificate was (The divorced husband of Annie Humble formally conroy) I personally feel he never divorced anyone, I've searched and searched to no avail.

There always been rumours about how he went to jail for bigmany but thats a whole nother story lol :)

mb

Val wish Id never started
30-04-15, 20:30
here are 4 Nancy Deaths born 9 Oct 1913 could be one of them

NAME: Nancy Burgess
BIRTH: 9 Oct 1913
DEATH: Mar 2004 - South Hams, Hampshire, England

NAME: Nancy Earnshaw
BIRTH: 9 Oct 1913
DEATH: Mar 1989 - Sheffield, Yorkshire, England

NAME: Nancy McNeal
BIRTH: 9 Oct 1913
DEATH: Aug 1996 - Nottingham, Nottinghamshire, England

NAME: Nancy Simpson
BIRTH: 9 Oct 1913
DEATH: Mar 1996 - Derby, Derbyshire, England

Mbrady
30-04-15, 20:48
Thanks Val, I have been thinking for weeks about ordering these certificates, she might be none of those, but its my best shot.

I wished that 1939 register on FMP would hurry up and come out....but they're saying could be years for that.

Val wish Id never started
30-04-15, 21:01
blast I posted an answer and its gone ??

Been looking for a marriage between her and one of those men ,she may not have married at all, also dont forget a lot of Birth dates are wrong on Death Certs? she may have lied about her age.

Mbrady
30-04-15, 21:10
Yeah, and if she died before 1969 i think it is? there isnt any DOB on death certificates at all? Or yeah, she could have lied, or never married again....its so difficult. I'm just looking for ways to try and narrow it down before blowing more money on wrong certificates..but she could well be one of those people.. I think I would try the 1989 one first..

Val wish Id never started
30-04-15, 21:15
you could look on the will site if she left one may give you a clue , try those 4 first
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills

Mbrady
30-04-15, 21:16
never thought of that..thanks Val, I'll give that a go :)

Val wish Id never started
30-04-15, 21:30
did she have a middle name ?

Olde Crone Holden
30-04-15, 21:35
Well, that explains it then, if he was a bigamist! She obviously found out before she registered the birth. I should think that's why she left, too.

Val - I've checked those four Nancys, none of them was a Bell or a Brady at marriage as far as I can see.

Normally the GRO suppresses bigamous marriage certs so possibly he wasn't caught for that one. Also, normally when you tell the Registrar you are divorced, you have to show your Decree Absolute although I suppose he might have got away with that in wartime by saying he'd lost the papers.

OC

Val wish Id never started
30-04-15, 21:44
here is a list of 40 names all Nancy born 9 Oct but different years not put a surname in .
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?gss=angs-c&new=1&rank=1&gsfn=nancy&gsfn_x=1&msbdd=9&msbdd_x=1&msbdm=10&msbdm_x=1&msbdy=1913&msbdy_x=1&msbdp=5&_83004003-n_xcl=m&cpxt=1&cp=11&MSAV=1&uidh=uld&gl=BMD_DEATH&gst=

Val wish Id never started
30-04-15, 21:46
shame OC , not found a suitable Nancy Bell, or Nancy Brady ,but one of the above could be her as like a lot of women in my tree she could have taken a few years off her age.

Mbrady
30-04-15, 21:46
Yeah thats what I think too OC...Annie showed up, or she found out some way and ditched him. I do have all three marriage certificates because I thought I would of been refused one perhaps? but I got them all no probs...but like you say they may have let him off in war times.. Or some have said they weren't that strict back then and you could tell them anything, its a puzzler.

No, no middle name Val...just Nancy Bell. Registered on the 14th November 1913, address 124 North Street Coventry

thanks for looking...

mb

Val wish Id never started
30-04-15, 22:18
wonder if this is her in 1939 44 Chandros Street Coventry ?
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2584/m0475m-00643/7130965?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2f%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fnew%3d1%26gsfn%3dnancy%26gsln%3dbe ll%26rank%3d1%26gss%3dangs-c%26mswpn__ftp%3dCoventry%252c%2bWarwickshire%252c %2bEngland%26mswpn%3d88065%26mswpn_PInfo%3d8-%257c0%257c0%257c3257%257c3251%257c0%257c0%257c0%2 57c5288%257c88065%257c0%257c%26msbdy%3d1913%26sbo% 3d1%26pcat%3d35%26h%3d7130965%26recoff%3d5%2b6%26d b%3dMidlandsElectoral%26indiv%3d1%26ml_rpos%3d8&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord

Mbrady
30-04-15, 22:35
I can't see that Val...is it just a name and a address?

Val wish Id never started
30-04-15, 22:41
17674its the 1939 electoral roll for Yardly Coventry

Mbrady
30-04-15, 23:01
Thank you for posting Val..

Is there just two people at that address?

What does Bw and Ow mean... I know Rw is Resident Woman?

Mbrady
30-04-15, 23:17
you know, that could well be her Val...its only a few streets away from where she was born in North Street..whats the chances of that.. Coventry is huge. Maybe she moved back down there, where she spent her childhood and where better to go, than the places she knew.. :)

Val wish Id never started
30-04-15, 23:19
there is a link on here about the codes I'll see if I can find it ,and no she isnt the only one there

Olde Crone Holden
30-04-15, 23:21
Yes, you could tell them anything but they were oddly insistent about divorce papers. You could say you were a widow or a spinster and you didn't have to prove it, but if you said you were divorced, you did!

Have you tried newspapers for reports of the bigamy?

Val - that looks good!

OC

Val wish Id never started
30-04-15, 23:23
17675 here are the other 2 same address. yes OC reckon its her

Val wish Id never started
30-04-15, 23:25
http://www.electoralregisters.org.uk/codes.htm

Mbrady
30-04-15, 23:32
Thanks OC...I had wondered about this for a long time, even asking many people who have been married recently about what they needed to prove, and one in particular who had been divorced said he needed the Decree thing. I've looked through all the records on divorce at my locals archives, but have to admit, looking through what could be 10 years of newspapers is a little daunting, and what if it didnt make the papers...yikes, I'm hoping my local newspaper get digitized soon.

You know, I honestly think this could be her Val, I'm a little excited here haha, so close to her birth place. Can we tell from the capture who is head of the house. I have the codes infront of me, but I'm having a little trouble understanding them...well I can read them. Is Norah Ellen Adams head of the household?

3 girls together, all mates perhaps...this is a good lead :)

Olde Crone Holden
30-04-15, 23:37
No, you won't find recent records of divorce, but bigamy ALWAYS made the newspapers!

OC

Val wish Id never started
30-04-15, 23:38
17676 not really sure if they are at same address its not very clear

Mbrady
30-04-15, 23:45
Again thanks for posting Val. I've just noticed it has Hereford though, there is a Chandos street in Hereford :question:

is this from a Coventry book?

Olde Crone Holden
30-04-15, 23:52
Doesn't that mean that Minnie Luscombe lives in Chandos St Hereford but can vote because she is a business woman (maybe Landlady?) of the property where Nancy Bell lives?

OC

Val wish Id never started
30-04-15, 23:53
it says Small Heath Ward Yardley in the Midlands Coventry Road , must go now will have another look tomorrow

Val wish Id never started
30-04-15, 23:58
just had a thought wonder if she had more children ??? I just had a look for any children born Coventry to a Mother maiden name Bell found one so far F J A 1942 Mar quarter 6D 1396 could be her son ???

Sorry Val, had to take that name out as he could easily be alive.

Val wish Id never started
01-05-15, 00:01
ignore that one dont think its her

Mbrady
01-05-15, 00:15
I thought by that capture they all lived at 44 Chandos street... I'm a little mixed up as this is different to Electoral registers I've looked at in the local library. In the library, below is her parents and brother in 1933..last year at that address

17677

So you dont think its her now?

Val wish Id never started
01-05-15, 00:18
yes I do think its her on the electoral roll shame you dont have ancestry then you could see the whole page, I'm not sure how to show it without the link.

Val wish Id never started
01-05-15, 00:20
have you checked your library doesn't have the 1939 one ? or maybe the local council

Mbrady
01-05-15, 00:27
Yes they do have the 1939 registers, but they had moved out by 1934 and another family have moved in, so I had no idea where to look for them...oh right so you still think its her..

I'll go get myself a months worth and have a look :)

Val wish Id never started
01-05-15, 00:38
cannot post it , off to bed now night

Mbrady
01-05-15, 00:42
No that never worked Val, but I'm back in and looking at the whole page from your link :)..it could well be her, not as close to her birth place as I thought, but still pretty close. I never knew you could search election registers on ancestry so I'm having a little go at that now....

mb

Chrissie Smiff
01-05-15, 09:53
Of course there is also the possibility that she could have died after 2007. She would have been 94 at the end of the year which is not impossible by any means.

Olde Crone Holden
01-05-15, 10:03
Post #29 - that child was from a marriage in 1939 between James Askew and EUNICE Bell so not her as Val says.

Only Minnie Luscombe lives at 44 Chandos St Hereford.

OC

Mbrady
01-05-15, 11:09
Thanks for all the replies.

I'll be honest now and say I'm getting a little confused...:confused:

Nice link to the wills though Val, And I'm pleased I joined ancestry again because I found her fathers death and will date. 26th August 1961, Darlington

Another step closer :)

Val wish Id never started
01-05-15, 12:23
and of course she may have lived as a married couple but not actually married.

Val wish Id never started
01-05-15, 12:26
maybe her fathers will may give a clue ?

Val wish Id never started
01-05-15, 12:38
do you know when her brother Norman died ?? as on the Electoral roll for 2002-2011 there is a Nancy Bell 65+ and a Norman Bell
living at
79, Garth Thirtythree, Newcastle Upon Tyne, Tyne And Wear, NE12 6DB for 27 years ??

Mbrady
01-05-15, 12:38
yeah there is that Val...and yes, having her father last residence and year of death is definitely a good lead :)

vera2013
01-05-15, 20:10
Hello

Not sure if you are still keeping with Val's findings on the electoral register for Yardley. Here is a link to a Trade Directory for Birmingham.

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1547/GB0624-01814/694782?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return&rc=1544,1789,1614,1807;376,1815,535,1842;232,1850, 377,1881;1428,1879,1572,1912;955,3064,1100,3095;16 83,3161,1828,3190


It would seem that the premises at Coventry Road where Nancy Bell is in 1939 is Draper's shop owned by Minnie Lipscome and N Adams.

Seems strange that Nancy gave up caring for her child when her family were still alive. Wonder if there was some post birth illness which prevented this.

Vera

Mbrady
01-05-15, 22:30
Hi again Vera, :)....



I had been concentrating on her dads (as I found his will) and possible siblings in a around the Darlington Area for possible leads... I really know nothing of certain yet, but may well get back on that Nancy trail vera found. A drapers shop is interesting, could well just be visiting friends, took a job there..stop gap something like that....


The reason why she left, and would leave her baby is something no one knows, it seems unconscionable to think of today, but I'm sure she had her reasons . My uncle only knew her name and nothing else... he is getting on a bit I would love to find out for him, anything.


The search continues …............

Olde Crone Holden
01-05-15, 22:59
I can think of two reasons why she did not bring up the child herself.

1. - The child's father would not allow it. As his name was on the birth cert (even though he was a bigamist!) that meant that he "owned" the child and the mother had no say.

2. - Her family would have nothing to do with the child because he was born outside marriage. That still mattered to a lot of people in those days. If they would not help her, then what was she to do? I wouldn't assume that she just swanned off and forgot about her child, she may have thought he would be better looked after by his father's family than by her.

And of course, the child only knows that he never met his mother. That dosn't mean that she didn't visit, or keep an eye on him from afar. My friend discovered that "Auntie Margaret" whom he saw once a year and who used to clutch hold of him and weep, was his real mother. It was a family secret between two sisters.

Vera - I was going to suggest that Nancy was either in service or living on a shop premiises as that would explain why she couldn't vote in local by-elections.

OC

vera2013
01-05-15, 23:45
Hello OC

Nancy was younger than my mother and from the same area so that is what I am basing my feelings on.
I agree with everything you say about what could be the scenario but from my experience illegitimate children were cared for within the family shame or no shame.

I don't know the law on mother's rights over their children but would not have expected a father to take on the role of caring for a child if his wife was alive and well. I think perhaps Nancy was unwell.

NBrady maybe a perusal of similar records as her father but in the Newcastle area will show up something

re trials for bigamy there are some cases reported in The Times (From Lancs digital library) for various parts of the Country so think if he had been prosecuted this would have been reported.



Vera

Mbrady
02-05-15, 00:32
Nancy & Tommy were married in the local registry office in August of 1933. Their son, (my uncle) was born 4 months later, The scenario i think... this was a rush marriage..." we better get married here" because of scandal reasons OC has outlined. A full 5months later they both registered the birth with their own second names, and different address. I've checked electral registers and Nancy husband never moves away from that address until his death. She was only 19 and wasn't on the register but her family moves from the address she gave on the BC that same year. Maybe Annie showed up kicking off and Nancy and all her family moved away...so many scenarios one can only guess?

Thomas Brady married for a 3rd time in 1944, and his bride later came out with, he married her bigamist, and he got prosecuted for it...even said he did time for it. I've had the local records out HUGE book binder things full of divorces and I couldnt find a thing. but I havent gave up on that one yet...but maybe your right Vera...he may not have been prosecuted at all. What do you mean ....

"NBrady maybe a perusal of similar records as her father but in the Newcastle area will show up something" ?

mb

Olde Crone Holden
02-05-15, 00:39
Vera

I know of several cases - one as recent as the 1950s - where the father kept the children out of pure spite and dumped them on his relatives. He didn't really want the children, just didn't want HER to have them.

In one case (may have been on GR or even on here) the child had been told his mother was dead. In fact, she lived into her 80s. In another that I know of personally, the children were told that their mother had left because she didn't want them and if she tried to take them in the street they were to run away because she was going to drown them. In fact, the father had been so abusive to the mother that she was in hospital for many months and unable to do anything. When she did turn up and try to get them they ran away from her.

My point is..in the 1930s, men ruled the world. Women/mothers had very few rights and certainly had no legal rights to their children, so I would not assume, as I said, that she just callously abandoned her baby. It doesn't look as if she ever had any more children or even married. We only know one side of the story.

OC

Olde Crone Holden
02-05-15, 00:43
I would really like to know when they registered the birth. I suspect it was registered twice - once as a married couple in the usual way, then reregistered once she had found out about the bigamy.

Incidentally - a child born in a bigamous marriage is NOT legally illegitimate if one party to the marriage did not know they were committing bigamy.

OC

Val wish Id never started
02-05-15, 01:02
I've been fishing and Thomas B Humble and Annie H Conroy had a daughter in 1921 in Newcastle

got to go to bed will look for more stuff tomorrow

Mbrady
02-05-15, 01:22
Hmm maybe I worded it badly, but I have no evidence at all she "callously abandoned her baby" I really don't think this at all. Like I said I'm sure she had her reasons...what I meant was in today society where certain taboos from the 30's really arent taboos anymore, it would be a lot less likely to happen. especially with the likes of social media, etc...

They registered the birth in Jan 26th 1934.. this was 5 months after they were married. 4 weeks after he was born,,

I'm on touch with C A H's grandson Val, he lives in america and we've exchanged many emails. He said his grandma never mentioned anything about this ever, and he also asked whats left of the family and they know nothing either. But we both agree its 100% his grandmother... it went something like...

"Mike, at first I was hoping we were related...but family scandal, this is even better"!! haha yanks eh :)

Goodnight, mb

vera2013
02-05-15, 01:31
Nancy & Tommy were married in the local registry office in August of 1933. Their son, (my uncle) was born 4 months later, The scenario i think... this was a rush marriage..." we better get married here" because of scandal reasons OC has outlined. A full 5months later they both registered the birth with their own second names, and different address. I've checked electral registers and Nancy husband never moves away from that address until his death. She was only 19 and wasn't on the register but her family moves from the address she gave on the BC that same year. Maybe Annie showed up kicking off and Nancy and all her family moved away...so many scenarios one can only guess?

Thomas Brady married for a 3rd time in 1944, and his bride later came out with, he married her bigamist, and he got prosecuted for it...even said he did time for it. I've had the local records out HUGE book binder things full of divorces and I couldnt find a thing. but I havent gave up on that one yet...but maybe your right Vera...he may not have been prosecuted at all. What do you mean ....

"NBrady maybe a perusal of similar records as her father but in the Newcastle area will show up something" ?

mb



I will PM you as I am referring to recent past

Vera

vera2013
02-05-15, 01:42
OC

That is a terrible scenario you describe. Spite with the law on their side.

My parents married in 1930. I wasn't born in that decade but I can't see my mother being ruled especially when it came to her children although I'm sure there was great dependence on the male.

Vera

vera2013
02-05-15, 01:50
I've checked electral registers and Nancy husband never moves away from that address until his death

Are you aware he popped over the the USA in 1929 Out in February returned in May

Vera

Mbrady
02-05-15, 09:36
Yes, sorry, I was aware of that Vera..that was before his first marriage...its where I think he met his first wife tbh..I meant post second marriage.

mb

JBee
02-05-15, 11:35
Women had few rights up until possibly the 1960's regarding children and keeping a roof over their head. It's quite possible the husband said you can go but you're not taking the child, or she had nowhere to go. In those days getting a room with a baby never mind a flat or house would have been neigh on impossible and if there was no family willing to take her in she had no choice.

It's also possible she had post natal depression and may have been hospitalised. She may or may not have tried to go home but circumstances had changed and she wasn't allowed to return.

Val wish Id never started
02-05-15, 15:18
my Nan had her first child before she married so she registered him after the marriage, so it looked like he wasn't illigitimate, he never knew his real date of Birth not as late as your one though.