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  • How can we be sure ... ?

    ... that we're on the right lines?

    This isn't a plea for look-ups, more an attempt to start a discussion about how we decide who to include in our tree and where to hesitate.

    For instance:

    I have a Joseph, b. 1791 and d. 1874 in the same small north Warwickshire village where he was baptised. Info confirmed by census, baptism and burial records. His parents (from the baptism) are James and Elizabeth. There are no other James/Elizabeth partnerships baptising children in that village around that time, so it would seem that Joseph's siblings are Sarah, Ambrose, John, Elizabeth, Mary, Ann and Samuel (and from census info, confirmed via nieces/nephews etc).

    In that same small north Warwickshire village, there's a burial in 1829 of a 75yo James, which would make him b. abt 1754 and so the correct age to be having those children, and 4-5 miles away in another village is a marriage to an Elizabeth in 1878, a year before Sarah was born.

    Then trying to find info about James (b. 1754), there's no baptism in the village register and nothing obvious comes up on Ancestry from the Warwickshire PRs. However, having looked on Ancestry, FS, FreeReg and anywhere else I can think of, I see that there's a baptism 20 miles away across the border in Staffordshire that seems to match, showing him as the son of another James. On further investigation, it seems that James senior was the son of an Ambrose.

    On similar lines, Elizabeth seems to be the daughter of a Joseph, who in turn was the son of a Samuel.

    So, it's all a bit circumstantial, but is that enough to put them on my tree as my direct ancestors? Or, if all PRs in the UK had been indexed and available on-line, might there be another family of the same name somewhere else in the country entirely who might be the "real" ancestors? Do I just have to wait for that day to find out?

    This must be a situation that we all find ourselves in, so how do you decide whether or not you're on the right track, rather than chasing shadows?

    STG
    Always looking for Goodwins in Berkshire.

  • #2
    STG

    Before the advent of computers it was easy - you just wrote these people on your tree in pencil until the day came that something cropped up to confirm your hunch.

    Nowadays I do much the same, as my paper tree is my primary record, so I can still literally pncil things in. Online trees are a bit more difficult, but on my TP tree for instance, it is easy to put floaters and floating families. Just have to make sure you cross reference e.g.

    "His father may or may not be Joe Bloggs 1754, qv"

    so you know where to find the speculative work you have done.

    You are right of course - not everything is online, not everything has survived anyway and some people managed to evade official recording even then. Sometimes you have to wait for something else to turn up, such as a will, a land transaction and so on.

    OC

    Comment


    • #3
      Or equally valid, something turns up which DISPROVES the theory.

      Jay
      Janet in Yorkshire



      Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

      Comment


      • #4
        Naming patterns are a good clue too, England Ireland, Scotland and Wales each have their own Naming patterns and from what you have already found you can see if the family have been following these naming patterns which should give a clue to the Fathers name.
        Another way to find parishes close to the one your person is from is to use something like Parish Locator which finds parishes with in a radius of your parish in miles to check those out for your person or Family Name.


        http://www.parloc.pwp.blueyonder.co....shlocator.html

        Edna

        Comment


        • #5
          I meant to say - I have no less than five possible lines in place for my 2 x GGF, just waiting to be proved or disproved. Been like that for over 40 years now, although I have managed to reduce it from seven possibles down to five in that time!

          OC

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
            I meant to say - I have no less than five possible lines in place for my 2 x GGF, just waiting to be proved or disproved. Been like that for over 40 years now, although I have managed to reduce it from seven possibles down to five in that time!

            OC
            So if you live for another 80 years, it will be down to just one possibility.

            [maths not my strong point, though, so I could be wrong!]

            STG
            Always looking for Goodwins in Berkshire.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by clematised View Post
              Another way to find parishes close to the one your person is from is to use something like Parish Locator which finds parishes with in a radius of your parish in miles to check those out for your person or Family Name.


              http://www.parloc.pwp.blueyonder.co....shlocator.html

              Edna
              I hadn't got the parish locator thingy, so thanks for that Edna.

              STG
              Always looking for Goodwins in Berkshire.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by SmallTownGirl View Post
                So if you live for another 80 years, it will be down to just one possibility.
                What a scary thought.
                Uncle John - Passed away March 2020

                Comment


                • #9
                  I use FTM to record my trees. When there is more than one candidate I decide on the most likely and put a "?" after their name. I note down the details of the others, my reasons for not picking them and why I chose the one I did. Prior to 1800 I have quite a few names with question marks!
                  Last edited by modem; 11-02-15, 01:14.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by clematised View Post
                    Another way to find parishes close to the one your person is from is to use something like Parish Locator which finds parishes with in a radius of your parish in miles to check those out for your person or Family Name.


                    http://www.parloc.pwp.blueyonder.co....shlocator.html

                    Edna
                    Here's another one:
                    maps.familysearch.org

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I've solved it in another way .............

                      My daughter, only child, said she was not interested in a "dry" family tree ............. she wanted to know more about the people. So, if I was to do anything that she would really like to have, would I please do that.

                      As a result, I have never bothered to make a typical family tree using any program ..........

                      Instead, I have a "text" tree (more of a Descendent Register than anything), and I can therefore put in all the possible suggestions that I need, all within the same paragraph

                      For example, my gt grandfather married twice. His first wife was a Maria Tugwood, married in 1844, had 3 children with the last one born in February 1850 and dying 1 month later. Maria died of "phthisis" in May 1850. I have their marriage certificate, which names her father, but I have not found her on the 1841, and she dies before the 1851 Census. I think I have her parents, so that is set out in the Cadd Family ...........

                      10. James Cadd was born 17 Oct 1824 in Preston Bisset. He married 1. Maria Tugwood on 30 December 1844 in the Parish Church, Preston Bisset (marriage certificate, witnesses Joseph Cadd and Sarah Clifton). He was “of full age” and she was 20. She was born in 1826, the daughter of John Tugwood, Shoe Maker (according to the marriage certificate) and ?Ann ??, and died age 25, of Phthisis (TB), 26 May 1850 in Preston Bisset (death certificate, reported by Sarah Bennett, present at death).


                      and then under Tugwood Family ...........

                      1. John Tugwood was born ca 1793, South Newton, Oxfordshire (1851 Census). He married Ann (???Hill) in ???, and was a Shoe Maker. In 1841, he and Ann (b. ca 1796, Twyford, Buckinghamshire, 1851 Census) were living, alone, in Preston Bisset. John was shown as age 48, and Ann as age 45 (ie, his age not apparently rounded down). A John Tugwood married Ann Hill, 22 Dec 1817, Twyford, Buckinghamshire.

                      ??? are these the parents of Maria Tugwood who married James Cadd in 1844. She said father John Tugwood, Shoe Maker, on marriage certificate. Probably!!

                      In 1841, Maria’s 2 surviving children are living with John and Ann Tugwood, 2 doors away from their father.

                      John Tugwood (transcribed as Snywood), b.ca 1791, South Newton, Oxfordshire, Shoe Maker, Ann Tugwood, b.ca 1795, Twyford, Buckinghamshire, Thomas Cadd b.ca 1846, Preston Bisset, Grandson, and Elizabeth Cadd b.ca 1847, Preston Bisset, Granddaughter



                      Now all I have to do is put all the information that I have collected on my family and on my husband's family together in a "readable" fashion for the daughter, together with photos and information on the areas they lived in

                      I think I might have to live to 150 to have enough time to do it :D
                      Last edited by Sylvia C; 11-02-15, 03:57. Reason: strange spacing
                      My grandmother, on the beach, South Bay, Scarborough, undated photo (poss. 1929 or 1930)

                      Researching Cadd, Schofield, Cottrell in Lancashire, Buckinghamshire; Taylor, Park in Westmorland; Hayhurst in Yorkshire, Westmorland, Lancashire; Hughes, Roberts in Wales.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        STG

                        What a timely post for me. I have been trying to make a decision today about 3 of my ancestors. 1 being Thomas Doggett who had his first child in 1753 in Flitton, Bedfordshire. I have a christening 1727 for a Thomas Doggett at Wooton by Bedford, to John & Elizabeth which is not far from Flitton, but I have no real proof. The other 2 I've been looking at are very similar examples. So did more researching today, can't prove it or disprove. I have family tree maker so all this information goes into Research Notes maybe even going back another 3 generations for the supposed father John. It is tempting to put it into your tree but having looked at it I've decided I'm not going to.

                        Tora

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by SmallTownGirl View Post
                          ... that we're on the right lines?

                          This isn't a plea for look-ups, more an attempt to start a discussion about how we decide who to include in our tree and where to hesitate.

                          snip

                          This must be a situation that we all find ourselves in, so how do you decide whether or not you're on the right track, rather than chasing shadows?

                          STG
                          The answer is simple you use other records to add weight to your assumptions.
                          However that is easier said than done.

                          The obvious records to use are things like wills, there may even be early census that give useful details (1801-1831) for a few locations and a number of church records in the parish chest.

                          There are a number of records that are useful if one has to decide between people in different locations such as churchwarden accounts, a thousand and one different taxes, manorial records etc. etc.

                          It is really a case of searching to see what is available offline as well as online.
                          Cheers
                          Guy
                          Last edited by Guy; 11-02-15, 07:53.
                          Guy passed away October 2022

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I always wish that parish records were as precise as the ones in Jersey CI. There the norm at baptism give the mothers maiden name and the child names as say James, son of James son of John. With this in hand and a copy of the church records I simply flew back to the 1600's with very little problems on mismatching.
                            Whoever said Seek and Ye shall find was not a genealogist.

                            David

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Guy View Post
                              The answer is simple you use other records to add weight to your assumptions.
                              However that is easier said than done.

                              The obvious records to use are things like wills, there may even be early census that give useful details (1801-1831) for a few locations and a number of church records in the parish chest.

                              There are a number of records that are useful if one has to decide between people in different locations such as churchwarden accounts, a thousand and one different taxes, manorial records etc. etc.

                              It is really a case of searching to see what is available offline as well as online.
                              Cheers
                              Guy
                              Oh how I'd love to have a good old rummage as in the days before online records.
                              It was slow work in those days just to get your direct lines back to early 1800's let alone into the 1700's. Now I no longer live anywhere near a R O relevant to any of my family I am now almost entirely reliant on online records.
                              I therefore have quite a few question marks on my tree. I have always made it a rule for my direct lines to have 2 sources of differing types before removing the ?
                              Kat

                              My avatar is my mother 1921 - 2012

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Guy View Post
                                The answer is simple you use other records to add weight to your assumptions.
                                However that is easier said than done.

                                The obvious records to use are things like wills, there may even be early census that give useful details (1801-1831) for a few locations and a number of church records in the parish chest.

                                There are a number of records that are useful if one has to decide between people in different locations such as churchwarden accounts, a thousand and one different taxes, manorial records etc. etc.

                                It is really a case of searching to see what is available offline as well as online.
                                Cheers
                                Guy
                                So, again, using my example, I'd be better off looking in their Warwickshire parish for info*, hoping that it says something like "originally from ........ ", than looking in the parish they came from? Right?

                                * and that means a visit to the Warwickshire Records Office

                                STG
                                Always looking for Goodwins in Berkshire.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Three pieces of evidence, says SoG and I work to that rule usually. It also means doing lots of mini trees, which is how I have finished up with two "village trees".

                                  The internet is a wonderful research tool but it is still minute in terms of what records it displays. Have a look at the LDS library for your area and see how many OTHER resources there are, in my case hundreds, mostly local history which often provides an answer to your problems. What I am trying to say is that at this stage it is not usually possible to rely entirely on bmds but to look for other sources of information, which won't necessarily be online.

                                  OC

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                                    Three pieces of evidence, says SoG and I work to that rule usually. It also means doing lots of mini trees, which is how I have finished up with two "village trees".


                                    OC
                                    Yes, I agree OC and I have at least three for all mine going back to 1837 but before 1800 I have had difficulty getting 2 in a lot of cases! I have become resigned to the fact that I will be unable to prove a lot of my work but hopefully I have left enough clues for my grandchildren to follow up should they become interested.
                                    Kat

                                    My avatar is my mother 1921 - 2012

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Guy's suggestion is great ............................


                                      except for those of us who live on another continent, and have little hope of ever getting to visit record offices, and who have ancestors who would never have left a will ............... ag labs and lace makers could barely make a living let alone leave anything

                                      It would be a dream to find anything more than their baptism, marriage and death!
                                      My grandmother, on the beach, South Bay, Scarborough, undated photo (poss. 1929 or 1930)

                                      Researching Cadd, Schofield, Cottrell in Lancashire, Buckinghamshire; Taylor, Park in Westmorland; Hayhurst in Yorkshire, Westmorland, Lancashire; Hughes, Roberts in Wales.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by Sylvia C View Post
                                        Guy's suggestion is great ............................


                                        except for those of us who live on another continent, and have little hope of ever getting to visit record offices, and who have ancestors who would never have left a will ............... ag labs and lace makers could barely make a living let alone leave anything

                                        It would be a dream to find anything more than their baptism, marriage and death!
                                        Sylvia, whilst agreeing distance does make a difference to the "ease" of research you may be surprised, whilst it is not likely that poor Ag.Labs. left wills the term covers a variety of occupations from the stone picker to the farm foreman.
                                        This may be revealed in census entries in the form of a servant.
                                        Likewise Lace Makers I have a lace maker in my family history, and he left a will proved June 1882.

                                        There are also records available in other forms for those too distant from archives, in the form of books, microfilm, microfiche and CDs plus digital downloads.

                                        These cover a range of subjects from trade directories , manor court records, court leet records, manorial records, epherima such as apprenticeship indentures. The list is endless.
                                        I am not saying every researcher will find examples of every record for each person in their family history but there is a chance that the historic records will include them.
                                        Four “groups” of people are particularly well served.
                                        The rich; the landowning; the poor; and the criminal.

                                        It tends to be the moderately well off who earned enough to provide for themselves and their families, but who did not own land who are the most difficult to find additional records for.

                                        Cheers
                                        Guy
                                        Guy passed away October 2022

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