help to find a marriage. John Phillips to Margaret Williams

[ClaireP]

I am struggling with my brick wall, can anyone help? I can find no record of my great grandparents marriage. John Phillips was from Llangorse and Margaret Williams was from Talgarth. All their children were born in Talgarth, I think the first was David in 1865, Def my grandfather in 1874 and their youngest Margaret Dora in 1884. The only marriage i have found with the correct names was in Neath and that was incorrect when i got the cert. I have found the family on all the relevant census returns living in the Talgarth area. Without the marriage cert showing their parents I dare not move on to the ext generation which I think I know. Thanks for reading this.

[Guest]

how about Jun quarter 1862 Neath Glamorganshire Wales 11A 593 oops wrong one then ?

[Guest]

Mar quarter 1866 Carmarthen Carmarthenshire Wales 11a 861

[ClaireP]

Mar quarter 1866 Carmarthen Carmarthenshire Wales 11a 861

Thanks for your time and help with this Val. This does look possible although I can't think why they would marry in Carmarthen. It is about 60 miles from Talgarth and they were both born and raised in and around Talgarth and all their children were all born in Talgarth. Any thoughts from anyone?thanks again Val

[Chrissie Smiff]

Which census have you got them on Claire and when were Margaret and John born.

[ClaireP]

Which census have you got them on Claire and when were Margaret and John born.

Hi Chrisse. I have found them on 1871, 1881, 1891, 1901 and 1911 in the Hamlet of Treffgarne, Talgarth. Margarets year of birth remains static at 1844 but John's seems to change from 1836 to 1840Thanks

[ClaireP]

Sorry Chrisse forgot to say John born in Llangorse (about 3 miles from Talgarth) and Margaret was born in Talgarth

[Chrissie Smiff]

Can I assume that you got their names from one of the childrens birth certs and it said John Phillips and Margaret nee Williams? Also, what did the birth cert give as John's occupation please?
I have to go now but this information could help as the names are quite common in Wales I'm afraid.

[Guest]

in 1911 says married 45 years which would be abt 1866 if I have the right couple is he a farmer?

[vera2013]

I did wonder if Margaret Williams could have been married previously - there is a possible marriage for Brecknock reg district for Llangorse which includes John Phillps, Margaret Davies and two others. However as she would have been 20 at the time of that marriage, not likely I suppose.

Couldn't see anything for Talgarth (Hay reg)

John Phillips 1864 April/May/June Brecknock 11b 153
Margaret Davies
William Evans
Mary Price

Vera

[Chrissie Smiff]

There isn't a marriage of a Margaret Williams to a Davies in Hay but there are a couple of possibles in Brecknock. The one in June 1861 ref 11b 186, is to a possible Howell Davies. The others on the page are Margaret Williams - Mary Williams and David Waters.
There is a also a death of a Howell Davies in June 1863 and June 1864 in Brecknock. Though of course Davies (and Williams) are very common name in Wales.
So it might be an idea to see if we can find the couple together in 1871. So that we could exclude this?

There are births in Hay in 1844 for both Margaret Davies and Margaret Williams unfortunately.

p.s. I think it may help, at least a little when Claire comes back and tells us what it says on the childs/childrens birth cert/certs.

[ClaireP]

Hi, sorry for the delay in my response. I am on holiday at the moment with hit and miss Internet access. I am dashing out now but just wanted to give you a quick response. John was an ag labourer on most of the census returns. If you have the census return for College Row 1911 you have the correct family.

My grandfather's birth cert says parents John Phillips ag labourer and Margaret Phillips formally Williams.
Sorry i am rushing off, back soon

[Chrissie Smiff]

So this is them in 1911? - http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/23...l=ReturnRecord

[Chrissie Smiff]

This looks like John - unmarried - in 1861 - http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/87...l=ReturnRecord

and I wonder if this could possibly be Margaret Williams in 1861? - http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/87...l=ReturnRecord

Forgot to mention 1871 - http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/76...l=ReturnRecord

[ClaireP]

Hi I am back. I think all of the returns you have found are correct except the 1851. I have found one for a Margaret Williams living in Trewalkin, Trefeca, Talgarth. The only reason I believe that to be correct is because it shows her father as David and mother as Joan and these are the names of Margarets two eldest children. I also think that the David Williams on the same return as John Phillips is Margarets father.
I also think that the Elizabeth Phillips is John's grandmother not mother.

[ClaireP]

Having now looked again I think the 1861 census is wrong for John. I don't know how to link to Ancestry, but I believe John's mother to be America Pugh who died in 1853. I was given this information by someone who made a connection with me via the net and who then sent me some photos of my grandfather's sister. With that information i found a John Phillips living with a Pugh family.

I am almost sure I have the correct John but without having any certs or records showing his parents I have no evidence. I am less sure of Margaret, I am just working on a hunch with her.

[vera2013]

So according to the 1911, the couple married in 1866. Wonder if there is anything in the 6 children born alive 5 living and 3 deceased. Was she referring to children prior to her marriage to John Phillips.

Vera

[ClaireP]

I think David and Joan and an unknown child had died by 1911 as Edwin, John and Dora were all still alive. I have no record of a 6th child on any census returns so they could have been born to this marriage and died in between census years. I believe Margaret was 21 when she had David so could have had a child earlier. The return does however ask how many children born to the present marriage.
I am currently looking for deaths for David and Joan.

[ClaireP]

I have just noticed that today is the anniversary of John's death. He died today in 1919.