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I need some help with my gypsy family please

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  • I need some help with my gypsy family please

    Hi, I’m hoping someone can help me sort this family out please.

    I have been doing my Romany Gypsy family for 12 years now since 2002, but as this line isn’t my direct line I had put it on the back burner to do at a later date...only its been over 10 years now and one of their descendants has just contacted me to ask if i have any info, so it’s come to the front again.

    George Street & Matilda Caroline Mary Gleed married on 28th Jan 1848 in St Lukes Church, Canning Town (West Ham)
    George originally came from Epping/Loughton way.

    I know for definite they had 8 children, as I have marriages & children for them. – Phoebe 1893-1984, Florrie 1895- , Genty 1898-1973, Elizabeth May 1902-1985, George Henry 1905- , Wally 1910-1980 & Emma Martha 1913-1993.

    (Its Wally g-granddaughter that has just got in touch with me, as she knows nothing about her family history).

    George & Matilda have been very helpful in the 1911 census, saying they had 9 children, but 3 died. They even named the dead children and said how old they would have been! ;D
    But the names don’t match.
    In the 1911 they have - Feeby 20, Florince 15, Genty 13, Lizzie 9, George 6 and Walter 1.
    They have their 3 dead children as – Randle 18, Annie 17 & Isiah 2.
    I have found Isiah’s birth & death in 1909, but can’t find a Randle or Annie anywhere!

    In the 1901 census they are living in a van on Plumstead Marsh. Their children are Phoebe 6, Florrie 8 and Justice 2.

    After endless searches for Justice, have come to the conclusion that the Enumerator mis-heard and wrote Justice instead of Genty (spoken in a Romany accent?).... but really haven’t a clue about Randle & Annie.

    So I need to try and find a Randle/Randal born 1893c and an Annie b1894.......but Phoebe/Feeby was born Oct quarter 1893 in Epping, so must have a 9 month gap either side.

    There are several trees on Ancestry, but not very helpful as they seem to have all the names, or names missing...as if they have just copied each other.

    Thank you very much for reading and I hope I haven’t confused you too much


    1911 street census.jpg
    This is the 1911 census

  • #2
    This is the family in the 1901 census
    1901 census Street family.jpg

    Edit - Oops sorry should have said I know for def they had 7 children in my first post
    Last edited by Sandra; 29-10-14, 16:02.

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    • #3
      according to 1911 census Genty is a daughter so wouldn't be Justice ? unless he was a son and its been mistranscribed?

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      • #4
        there is a Genty Street born Mar quarter 1897 West Ham 4A 171

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        • #5
          and a Gentay Street Mar 1899 West Ham 4A 125

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          • #6
            Hi Val, Thanks for your input

            yes Genty certainly is a girl. She was born 25th Nov 1898, married 24th July 1914 to William Field & emigrated to Australia. She had 10 children.

            As I can see no sign of a Justice Street b1899c at all...actually, no sign of a Justice Street at all in any BMD's! ...and because Genty was born in 1898, this is what makes me think in the 1901 census, the Enumerator thought Genty in a Romany accent, sounded like Justice??

            sorry another mistook in my first post (I really should proof read!) George Street & Matilda Gleed married on 28th Jan 1898
            Last edited by Sandra; 29-10-14, 16:49.

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            • #7
              what about Annie Edith Street born 3rd quarter of 1895 West Ham 4a 108

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              • #8
                Yes I did see her & pencilled her in, but can't find a death for her before 1911, so really not convinced :(

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                • #9
                  If they married in 1898, Randle and Annie would have been born before that. There is a birth Q/E Sep 1894 and death June 1895 aged 0 for Randel Gleed in West Ham
                  Jackie

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Night Owl View Post
                    If they married in 1898, Randle and Annie would have been born before that. There is a birth Q/E Sep 1894 and death June 1895 aged 0 for Randel Gleed in West Ham
                    Well done, Jackie - that looks a good bet.

                    Jay
                    Janet in Yorkshire



                    Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

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                    • #11
                      Ooo thank you Jackie ... Doh!..I didn't give it a thought about him having his mothers maiden name!

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                      • #12
                        Well, I wonder about this.Bit of a wild card.

                        Eustace William Street Dec 1897 Newark.

                        Out of area I know, but maybe he wasn't actually their child, he was a relative's child and they couldn't be bothered explaining all that to the enumerator.

                        OC

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                          Well, I wonder about this.Bit of a wild card.

                          Eustace William Street Dec 1897 Newark.

                          Out of area I know, but maybe he wasn't actually their child, he was a relative's child and they couldn't be bothered explaining all that to the enumerator.

                          OC
                          Well spotted OC.

                          I think Phoebe was recorded as 16 in 1901 - the digit in the line above is 9, but I don't think the mark in front of the 6 is just a continuation of the descender of the 9.
                          Also, children were usually recorded in age order.
                          Where was Genty in 1901? If staying with relatives, then perhaps, as OC suggested, a child from the other family was with George & Matilda.

                          Jay
                          Janet in Yorkshire



                          Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            This is what makes me think Genty was ‘Justice’ in 1901, as no sign of a Genty or a Justice.... I can disregard the Newark one out, as they came from Epping/Loughton and stopped in Epping Forest or Canning Town (where they worked on the docks) They never travelled north at all, although some did venture into Kent.


                            Right this is what I have for the family now....and I’ll make sure I proof read it before I post lol.

                            George Street - 05/08/1866 Loughton – 17/04/1929 Whipps Cross Hospital, Walthamstow
                            married 28th Jan 1898 in St Lukes Church, Victoria Dock, Canning Town
                            Matilda Caroline Mary Gleed – 04/01/1872 Canning Town – 08/06/1934 Canning Town

                            Children...
                            Phoebe Elizabeth Street 05/11/1893 Epping – 1984 Tower Hamlets...married Horace Smith in 1907
                            Randle Street 1894-1895 West Ham
                            Annie Street ---- (possible birth Annie Edith Street 1895 West Ham....but no death date?)
                            Florence Street 1897 – 22/07/1944 Ilford (I have her burial receipt) .....married William Grover in 1915
                            Genty Street 25/11/1898, bap 09/12/1898 St Lukes, Victoria Dock... registered Genty, but baptised Hope (her grandmothers name)..married William Field
                            Elizabeth May Street 1902-1985 West Ham...married William Driscoll in 1918
                            George William Street 11/11/1904, bap 18/11/1904 St Lukes, Victoria Dock, died 1918 West Ham
                            Isaiah Street 1909-1909
                            Walter Street 11/03/1910 – 10/08/1980 West Ham...married Sophie Rose Stanford
                            Emma Martha Street 14/04/1913, bap 02/05/1913, died 1993 Newham...married Stanley Naylor
                            Mary Ann Street 30/03/1918, bap 02/06/1918 St Lukes, Victoria Dock, died 1998 Tower hamlets...married George Beer

                            So I have all the children including the ones born after the 1911 census...but really need to confirm Annie.

                            The East of London Family History Soc has all of St Lukes records online (free!) but I’m going to log onto Seax (Essex Ancestors) over the weekend, spend my fiver & go through all the other churches in the area and hopefully find baptisms for all of them...and solve the Annie and Justice riddle.

                            Don’t you just love our ancestors... I couldn’t find Genty in St Lukes parish records..but there was a Hope Street, born the same time, with the same parents, living at the same address! ...so they registered her Genty, called her Justice and baptised her Hope!!...very confusing

                            Thank you everyone for your help

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                            • #15
                              are you dismissing the one for Randel Gleed that Jackie found then?

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                              • #16
                                are we just looking for Annie now ?

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                                • #17
                                  I think Phoebe may well have been born a Gleed too.

                                  Jay
                                  Janet in Yorkshire



                                  Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

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                                  • #18
                                    The West Ham Annie E Street was, perhaps, still in West Ham in 1901?????

                                    Jay
                                    Janet in Yorkshire



                                    Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Not labouring the point, but Newark was (and still is) a gathering point for gypsy families and the family might have travelled to Newark for a family wedding or funeral. However, the Eustace Street I found can be easily eliminated if he shows up on the 1911 census!

                                      OC

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                                      • #20
                                        Hi Val, I do have the Randle Gleed that Jackie found & added him... (the age tally's up spot on with what mum Matilda had written on the 1911 census)

                                        Hi Janet, Phoebe was born a 'Street' in Epping (where the Street family lived for years) last quarter 1893... so yes, just looking for Annie's birth & death. I have pencilled in the Annie Edith Street as the date seems about right, but not found her death yet.

                                        Hi OC, I hear what you're saying about Newark, but even if they did travel that far or were indeed looking after a Eustace/Justice in 1901, I still can't find another Genty in the 1901?...or Hope as she was baptised as :/

                                        I'm just over the moon that Matilda had written down the children she had lost including their ages...just wish all my rellies had done this

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