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Mystery of Hogg/Smith marriage

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  • Mystery of Hogg/Smith marriage

    Hi all,

    I was wondering if anyone could shed some light on something that has driven me around the twist for the last hour or so. I have been searching for this marriage for years and today it showed up on Ancestry.

    William Hogg marrying Matilda Smith on the 22nd of May at St Mary's in Lambeth in 1864, it is a England, select Marriages 1538-1973 record. I have found the banns on 17th of April in 1864 but had never seen a marriage and thought maybe they had never got around to it, until today that is when this record popped up. Trouble is it doesn't seem to appear in the index and I have searched the individual records under both of their names and have also tried the three parishes in Lambeth. It just doesn't exist. Am totally baffled!

    Any help gratefully received.
    KAREN xx

  • #2
    I can see the record in a few different record sets but not in normal BMD index. Weird!!

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    • #3
      I know, it is really weird, typical really for my tree!

      Thanks for looking
      KAREN xx

      Comment


      • #4
        A couple of observations:

        Familysearch (which is where the "Select" data comes from) have a habit of publishing dates of banns as marriages.

        The Ancestry banns are incorrectly indexed as 17th April. If you look at the image, they were published 8th, 15th and 22nd May. So this is probably the same record which is indexed in the "Select" data.

        Some of the banns on this image are annotated with the date the wedding actually took place, but the one you're interested in isn't. This could lend weight to the suggestion they didn't actually marry.
        Rick

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        • #5
          Thanks Rick, I didn't realise that these records on ancestry came from the family search website. Several people have the wedding date in their tree as the 17th of April. I saw that this was a reading of the banns although hadn't noticed it had been incorrectly dated. I think you are probably right and they didn't marry. I have spent most of the afternoon trawling through marriage records for st Mary's in Lambeth and the BMD index also and I cannot find them.

          Thanks for the info and help
          KAREN xx

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          • #6
            You're welcome. Freebmd lets you search with a spouse's name, so I tried William Hogg with spouse's name Matilda from 1864 to 1880 and there's just one in Leicestershire. Looking at them in 1871, I noticed the first child is 6 and found a birth for him in Jul-Sep 1864, so Matilda was pregnant when the banns were read.
            Rick

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            • #7
              Hi Rick,

              Yes I saw that one in Leicestershire, that is just about typical re the pregnancy, I have quite a few of those in my tree!

              Their daughter Kate my great grandmother also appears never to have married.
              KAREN xx

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              • #8
                Ps meant to say, thank you for that info but they are not mine
                KAREN xx

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Fuzzy View Post
                  Ps meant to say, thank you for that info but they are not mine
                  Just in case I confused you, I realise the Leicestershire couple isn't yours, but my 1871 comment referred to your William & Matilda and their first born William Charles Hogg b. 1864 Lambeth.
                  Rick

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                  • #10
                    Hi Rick,

                    Yes she was indeed pregnant when the banns were read, again not uncommon for my lot! My favourites in my tree are the Franklins, who married 11 years after the birth of their first child and just after she had her fourth!

                    I have been looking for this marriage for years and have to come to the conclusion they didn't marry. As I said their daughter Kate didn't marry my great grandfather either.

                    Thanks so much for trying to help, it is very kind of you
                    KAREN xx

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                    • #11
                      Again, you're most welcome. My Pikes had their banns called when she was expecting her 4th child, but didn't marry at this time. They had them called again after their 7th child and finally married. I've come up with all sorts of scenarios over the years, but to this day I have no idea why.
                      Rick

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                      • #12
                        Oh wow, that is a mystery, very frustrating when you don't know why they do these things.

                        it is puzzling when the banns are read and the marriage doesn't take place, this is the second time this has happened to me. Not in this case as the couple have children and appear on the census as man and wife but the previous case the couple go their own separate ways, was he already married or was it a case of cold feet?!
                        KAREN xx

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                        • #13
                          Spare a thought for poor Rebecca Baldwin, whose family emigrated to Canada in 1832. All but one of the children of marrying age did so before leaving with their new spouses. She had her banns read in March 1832 and was buried in mid April.

                          At least that story has an explanation. Unlike the Alfred Pike and Marianne Gallagher I mentioned above. They were together in 1840 as she was the informant on his father's death certificate in that year. Alfred is with his widowed mother in 1841, but there's no sign of Marianne or her eldest son Edward (born in 1840 and no birth found). They're together in 1851 and 1861, had banns read in 1844 and 1851, and finally married in 1851 after 7 children (they had 9 in total). In 1871 and 1881, Marianne is married but there's no sign of Alfred and there's no death recorded for either of them. Her maiden name is Gallagher on her marriage cert and birth certs of 4 children. but Flower on my GG grandmother's. It hurts my head every time I revisit it !!
                          Rick

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                          • #14
                            OMG Rick poor Rebecca!

                            As for your Marianne, well, what a headache she is giving you! Where does your GG grandmother come in the order of the children? I wonder where on earth the flower name comes into things. Have you found any baptism record for Marianne? I am just wondering if she was illegitimate and born a Flower but perhaps she took the name Gallagher if her mum then married her father or another man and your GG grandmother took the name Gallagher but then maybe switched to Flower on the later children birth certs. I am probably way off base but something similar happened in my OH tree.
                            KAREN xx

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Fuzzy View Post
                              OMG Rick poor Rebecca!

                              As for your Marianne, well, what a headache she is giving you! Where does your GG grandmother come in the order of the children? I wonder where on earth the flower name comes into things. Have you found any baptism record for Marianne? I am just wondering if she was illegitimate and born a Flower but perhaps she took the name Gallagher if her mum then married her father or another man and your GG grandmother took the name Gallagher but then maybe switched to Flower on the later children birth certs. I am probably way off base but something similar happened in my OH tree.
                              Good questions and suggestions Karen !! Rather than hijack your thread any further, I'll put up a timeline on one of my own to see if anyone can make sense of it.
                              Rick

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                              • #16
                                Had a go looking this afternoon Rick but unfortunately didn't find anything new re Marianne. I did find a death for an Alfred Pike in 1862 in St George and the East, Middlesex. Am wondering if it is your fellow and Marianne said married on the census in 1871 instead of widow, again this has happened to me in the past.

                                I do hope you get some answers
                                KAREN xx

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                                • #17
                                  Thanks Karen. I'll have a look at that death, but Marianne is recorded as married in 1881 too !! I've just posted a thread about them.
                                  Rick

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                                  • #18
                                    So hope you get some answers Rick, these rellies sure know how to give us the runaround!
                                    KAREN xx

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