Help Dating Images

[Rick]

Please could I ask for some help in dating these two images ? I believe they may be of the same man, although the are labelled confusingly, but I don't want my views to influence things before getting other opinions. If the subject is correctly identified, then he was an English solicitor. I'm particularly interested in dating the style of dress, with the distinctive high collar and cravat. The photograph is not the original and was framed in an almost identical manner to a number of US tintypes. The drawing is accompanied by a note which states it was copied from a photograph on glass.

[keldon]

[QUOTE=Rick;2513334] copied from a photograph on glass.

No expert on clothing or photography, but according this website, photographs on glass have a very narrow time-frame. It may help.

http://www.phototree.com/id_amb.htm

[Holly]

[QUOTE=keldon;2513339]

copied from a photograph on glass.

No expert on clothing or photography, but according this website, photographs on glass have a very narrow time-frame. It may help.
http://www.phototree.com/id_amb.htm

I have a photo on glass, (wet colloidon print) of my GreatGrandparents. When I took it apart, - (it's in a little velvet lined wooden case) the date on it was 'Swansea, 1868'.
I would suggest that the print that you have posted was taken sometime in the 1860's.

Holly.

[Rick]

Thanks Phil & Holly. These copies are part of a large collection of copies and originals belonging to one family in the US. My US cousin has scanned and sent them to me and so far we have authenticated quite a few, but this one is pushing the boundaries. I'm a little suspicious of some of the annotation as some was done in the 19th century and some by a 20th century descendant. I understand from my limited knowledge (google !) that if we could see the form of the original that it would help to date it, but I don't know how and when these copies were made. I'm tempted to put aside what was written about the format of the original for now and concentrate on the look of the photo and what he is wearing.

Any photography or clothing experts care to offer an opinion ?

[bcbrit]

Hi Rick,

I am no expert , but did look in a couple of fashion books for you.

In 1841 Janez Puhar invented the process for making photographs on glass.

In the 1830's - Men's hair was often curled or waved with a centre or side parting. Sideboards are thick and curly.

In the 1840's - the hair is as above but less exaggerated. Sideboards are longer and often cover the jawbone. The shawl collar on coats and jackets is becoming smaller, and sleeves are puffed at the shoulders. Cravats are narrower than previously and tied in a wide bow.

In the 1850's - the hair is parted in the centre or on the side, less wavy, often dressed with hair oil.. Side whiskers and neatly trimmed moustaches. Cravats are narrow and tied with a small bow.

Personally, and again I am no expert, I would say that these are mid 1840's to mid 1850's. Don't forget that many people would continue to wear their clothes for years, and that older people preferred ( or couldn't afford to update) to wear styles from their prime. Think of all the old Victorians who continued to sport long and bushy beards, whilst the younger crowd had neat little beards or moustaches.

Have you thought of taking copies to museums and seeing if they can date the clothes, or art galleries and perhaps you could date them by looking at portraits ?

bcbrit

[Rick]

Thanks bcbrit. I've spent hours online looking at Regency and early Victorian fashion, early daguerrotypes and portaits. My own view is now that it is the same man and the drawing dates from around 1830 and the photo is from the early 1840s. If so, then this miniature is the man's younger brother.....


The frock coat, high-collared shirt and cravat are very similar to that worn in the drawing. This painting is dated 1825.

[Rick]

STG's thread on the Family Photos forum reminds me that I have an answer to my question, courtesy of a professional photo dating service. The first image is a rare early portrait daguerreotype dating to between 1841 (when the first commercial studios opened) and 1845. The puffed sleeves of the frock coat and the white cravat are an 1830s style of dress, which had gone out of fashion by the second half of the 1840s.

This makes the labelling of the photo as William Carvill, who died in 1844, likely to be correct. The drawing is also labelled as him. The format of the copies of the drawing and photograph is not original and was confusing our efforts to date them. I'm extremely pleased with this result as he is my GGGG grandfather.

[Guest]

sorry cannot help but what wonderful things to have

[Rick]

sorry cannot help but what wonderful things to have

I have quite a collection from this part of my tree now Val and it's probably the line I know most about. It proves the value of doing full descendancy research as the first two images were sent to me by a sixth cousin I traced to America.

[bcbrit]

Hi Rick,

What a wonderful result !

Thanks for letting us know. It is always nice to hear of an outcome.

Bcbrit

[Guest]

Most of the contacts I make know less about the ancestry than I do:(

[Rick]

Most of the contacts I make know less about the ancestry than I do:(

Actually she DID know less and that's why I found her and not the other way around. Her family's resident (pre-internet) historian had collected a goldmine of material, but he made one crucial mistake in mis-identifying William's parents. Add to that transporting the family from London where they lived to Hull and they were truly stuck. It's only because I followed William's brothers and son to the US and traced all their descendants that I connected with her.

She has sent me a couple of dozen images of Victorian photos - all labelled as to who they are. They even have a miniature portrait of my GGG grandmother, William's daughter, painted by her husband-to be, my GGG grandfather. I do feel very lucky.