Travelling Community

[Sue1]

Does anyone know of a good Travellers site (family history site that is!) - does one even exist?

Have found one of my Rowlands was "given to the gypsies" aged 8 years when her mother died and research shows she was. She was reunited with her family as an adult and described a very happy childhood with visits also from her original siblings and her surname had become Rowland-Smith. She married a John Wesseldine and had several children. The lady who brought her up was a Beatrice Smith who was married to an unknown Wesseldine and it was their son that Alice Emily Rowland married.
Alice's original parents (unmarried until 1893 i.e. 3 years before she died) were Richard Fergus O'Connor Rowland b 1877 Long Buckby, Northamptonshire and Alice Packer. Alice had 2 children also who were not Richard Rowland's children and a Will Smith may (not proved) have been involved somewhere - perhaps he was the father of the two children who did not belong to her eventual husband.

Can my family get any more complicated?

Sue

[Caroline]

There's a section in our Reference Library:

http://www.familytreeforum.com/content.php/345-Fairground-Showmen-Travellers

It's under General History in case you weren't sure where to look.

[Elaine]

Have you seen this message

http://romanyconnections.wikifoundry.com/thread/4895801/John+Smith+family+Leicestershire+Nottinghamshire+Rutland+Derbyshire

says Beatrice married James Weseldine

[Elaine]

1871 Ref http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/76...l=ReturnRecord

[Sue1]

Many thanks for that Elaine and for the website in particular.
There are actually two John Wesseldines - one was born in 1889 and he married Alice Emily Rowland who was given to the gypsies to bring up at the age of 8. Her mother had died and she would have otherwise gone to the Workhouse.
She had taken on the name of Alice Emily Rowland-Smith - don't know where the Smith came from - by the time she went back to her old home (just to visit) and she then returned to the travellers and married John Wesseldine who was the "brother" she had grown up with.
John Wesseldine snr and Alice married in1911 and had a few children (the first in 1911) and in 1923 the last child was the younger John Wesseldine who I have as marrying a Janet Hudson.
I have the older John Wesseldine as having an "unknown Wesseldine" as father and Beatrice Smith as mother i.e. Alice grew up with John Wesseldine jnr as a brother and presumably taking Smith from Beatrice and becoming Alice Emily Rowland-Smith until she married.
What started all this investigation is Alice's father - the Rowlands were very traditional in naming their children - same names occurred again and again but Alice father was a Richard Fergus O'Connor Rowland - the O'Connor must mean something and come from someone but ?who - it also sounds Irish - he had a son to whom he gave the exact same name who was Alice's brother. It was the above Richard who gave Alice to the gypsies to bring up.
Richard Fergus O'Connor Rowland b Long Buckby, Northhants in 1851 met Ann Packer, his eventual wife, in 1881 when she was boarding in the house where he was living - she was single and had 2 children. Their surname was Packer. In 1877 Ann and Richard had their first child together - another Richard Fergus O'Connor Rowland. They had 4 other children, the last being Alice Emily Rowland who became Rowland-Smith. Anne Packer died in 1896 but she and Richard had married eventually 3 years before she died. I am intrigued by Richard and his name and by the family in general and was trying to find out more when I came across the traveller connection.
I have, by the way, James Wesseldine as married to Janet Hudson. John Wesseldine the older was the son of Beatrice Smith and an unknown Wesseldine (presumably).
Richard Fergus O'Connor Rowland's parents were James Rowland and Elizabeth Godfrey - James was born in Dunnington, Lincolnshire and Eliza was born in Stony Stratford, Buckinghamshire.
I get more confused every time I look at this family.

Sue

[Sue1]

1871 Ref http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/76...l=ReturnRecord

Struggling to read where the Smiths actually came from - could it be Lincs?

Sue

[Elaine]

It's a combination of Notts and Leicestershire

had a look around

Bap John and Maria

William 7 Dec 1864 Willoughby on the Wolds St Mary and All Saints Abode Willoughby Gypsy
Mary Ann 6 May 1870 Arnold St Mary Horse Dealer

John and Carolina

Thomas Albert 11 Jan 1863 Plumtree St Mary The Virgin Abode Plumtree....as Coralina
John 1 Jan 1871 Barrow upon Soar Horse Dealer
As Selina
Eliza 30 May 1857

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/N1XL-Y62

John and Ann
Samuel 3 May 1863 as Willoughby above Gipsy Abode Foss Nr Willoughby

[Elaine]

Just wondering about 1901 Amos and 'Menty'

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1901&indiv=try&h=17320298

There's an Alice with them but a same age Hannah 1911, there's quite a few vans together 1911. Have you tracked Alice on the census?

[Sue1]

Hi Elaine, Sorry so slow to get back to you.
Alice Emily Rowland b became Alice Emily Rowland-Smith.
Married John Wesseldine b 1889 - d 1971. They had five children.
I now have pictures of Alice and her husband John Wesseldine and their caravan - they were on ancestry Trees. There are pictures of her also much older and working on a showground.
Alice was born in 1888 in Northampton, Northamptonshire. She died in 1965 in Newthorpe, Nottinghamshire in 1965. John her husband died 6 years later.
I remain intrigued by Alice's father Richard Fergus O'Connor Rowland - his name is so different to anything remotely like it in the family (and he named his oldest child the same) that I can help wondering if there is some Traveller connection there - I know there are currently some Irish Travellers in Sussex who are O'Connors but nothing else about the relevant time. The name also sounds sounds Irish. Richard's wife was Alice Packer - she was a single mother with two children when he met her - she and Richard didn't marry until 3 years before she died.
Having been through the family with a tooth comb and I still none the wiser and presume that Richard knew some travellers who would take his youngest child. I understand it is possible Richard joined the navy after Alice had been placed but have not been able to prove this. John Wesseldines mother was Beatrice Smith 1857 - 1948 born Crowston, Leicestershire and she brought up Alice Emily Rowland and Alice took her name and became Alice Rowland-Smith before she became a Wesseldine by marriage. Beatrice was married to a Wesseldine but don't know first name. It sounds as though he wasn't about when Alice lived there otherwise she would probably have taken on his name.

It started as a sad story that turned out to be a very happy story for all involved.

Sue

[Olde Crone Holden]

Sue

I don't know if I'm missing the point here, but Rowland is a very old fairground/circus name and it is quite possible they were in Ireland. Maybe Miss O'Connor ran off and joined the circus, lol.

OC

[Sue1]

Sue

I don't know if I'm missing the point here, but Rowland is a very old fairground/circus name and it is quite possible they were in Ireland. Maybe Miss O'Connor ran off and joined the circus, lol.

OC

Thanks OC - interesting that. My first ambition in life (albeit at about 5 years of age) was to be a trapeze artist in a circus. Turned out I wasn't built for graceful manoeuvres!
Found a Website for "Rowland and ?" who were well known on the showground circuit (in Cornwall I think) but didn't exist as far back as I want to go unfortunately. I am trying to research back to James Rowland b 176?ish supposedly in Montgomeyshire, Wales and there is a clue on this side of the family both on a Northampton census and a welsh baptism. I came across the Traveller connection quite by accident and very interesting it is too.
The chap who gave his youngest daughters to the Travellers (where she grew up very happily) was a Richard Fergus O'Connor Rowland b 1851 Long Buckby, N'Hants. His father was James Webster Rowland b 1831 Terrington-in-Holland, Lincs and his father was another James Webster Rowland b 1788 in Stamford, Lincolnshire. The name "Webster Rowland" appears in both lines of the family.
Have previously used the main line of the family to search to no avail but this side of the family has thrown up some connections with Wales (Monty) which are curious and interesting. I would like to think I see a "chink" appearing in my long-time brick wall. Am now wondering if there is a Traveller connection going further back via Richard F. O'C Rowland but it may just have been a one off.
I am wondering also if I should be looking at RC records rather than C of E but I understand there is a paucity of the former. No baptism has ever been found for James Rowland.

Sue

[Olde Crone Holden]

I've recently read several books about the genuine gypsy/traveller/showman community and one author makes a very good point.

Why would gypsies etc steal or take on children from outside their community? They have more than enough children of their own. So, the lady being "given" to the Rowlands is probably wrong, she was of their community and was reclaimed by them. There will be a definite link (marriage probably).

The problem with travellers is that they married/baptised wherever they happened to be at the time and if they were in Ireland, for instance, I've no idea how you could possibly start to look for those records.

OC

[Olde Crone Holden]

Oh dear Sue, I plonk this in your lap for you to consider, lol.

Fergus O'Connor was of course the famous Irish chartist. He died in 1855 in England. "Many Chartists named their children after him" "He never married but reputedly fathered many children".

OC

[maudarby]

Hi Sue
Can you elaborate on Will Smith mentioned in your first post?
I think OC may have a valid point that the lady in question may have been somehow related to the travelling community. I have been trying to find Alice Packer in 1871 when she would have a 1yr old Amy with her but not having any luck.
Moggie

[Sue1]

OC - I take your point about not needing to steal children. I had sort of imagined (with no proof whatsoever) that Richard Fergus O'Connor Rowland had asked this lady to help but I also felt there must be a prior knowledge of each other and/or families to ask such a thing. I suspect we will never know. There are quite a few Trees I now know (since finally paying up and becoming an Anc.co member about 3 weeks ago) who have the story on them. I don't glean anything bad from them (only good in fact) but I can see no hint of relationship. At the time Richard Fergus O'C Rowland married his wife Ann Packer they had already had all their 5 children but they all had been given the name Rowland (without the nuptuals). Alice Packer, his eventual wife 3 years before she died, came from Long Bucksby, N'Hants. I have gone through her family with a fine tooth comb but cannot find any possible connectons going back 2 generations BUT Alice did have 2 children (she was single) when she met Richard. The two children had her maiden surname Packer - I have no idea who there father's were.
Ann Packer's parents were Ann Frost 1807-1958 b Long Buckby and William Packer 1811 - 1856 b Long Buckby. I have gone much further back with them and there is nothing I can find that is relevant to Travellers unless the whole family were Travellers themselves but can find no proof of that although I initially expected to find that was the case. I had only just read that there was a Fergus O'Connor who was a leading Chartist - most of the N'Hants Rowlands worked in the shoe industry and I am sure many of them were Chartists at heart and I suspect my Fergus (actually there were 2 of them - father and son) were named after the original chap who, in fact was still alive when my oldest Fergus was alive.

Maudarby: I cannot enlarge on the Will Smith I found early on. I disregarded him after mentioning him which was a bad move. I don't think I had anything except a name. I will, however, check the Trees on ancestry as quite a few Trees have Alice Emily on them and the "Gypsy Story" - it is possible I saw it there - I don't remember there being any dates. However, when Alice Emily Rowland had grown up she added the name Smith after Rowland. The lady who brought her up was a Beattie/Beatrice Smith so I assumed it was after her and I can find no husband for Beattie - all her children were Wesseldines so I assumed I was missing a Mr. Wesseldine - I haven't found him.

Sue

[Olde Crone Holden]

Silly observation - have you trawled the newspapers? You might find something in there as you aren't having much luck with the bmds.

OC

[Elaine]

Have you got these first few references

https://familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3A%22Richard%20Fergus%20O%27Connor%22~%20%2Bsurname%3Arowland~%20%2Bresidence_place%3Aengland~

[Sue1]

OC: haven't trawled the newspapers but will do so - I think your answer previously that Fergus O'Connor the Chartist had children named after him could very well be exactly what happened - he was very active in Northampton ?could he have been Mayor at one time - I think he possibly was. One thing I did trawl was Criminal Registers and Richard Fergus O'Connor Rowland snr was there - spent time at HMs pleasure for common assault!

Elaine: Yes, I have the details on Richard F. O'C Rowland and all his family - I became more interested in him (and his father) because the name seemed to come out of nowhere in a family where they were very conventional with their names it seems i.e. repeated over and over so he stuck out like a sore thumb. Both snr and jnr Richard F O'C Rowlands were in the shoe industry in Northampton and I think OCs thought that he was named after the well known Chartist is probably the answer.

Sue

[Sue1]

I thought the Traveller connection was just Alice Emily and her family's circumstances at the time (the father Richard Fergus O'Connor Rowland was supposed to be going to join the navy - don't think he did - can't find him listed). I found a Smith in Richard O'C Rowland's "wife's" family - I think married to a grandparent or great aunt/uncle but left it at that as a) they were Packers (Alice Emily's deceased mother was a Packer) and b) the grandparent or whatever would be too old to be relevant.
Today, quite by chance, knowing that the Rowlands originally came from Wales (or were supposed to have) I came across, in the area where they were thought to have been - Maccynnleth/Cemmes, Montgomeryshire, a few Rowlands. Two families. I can't put the link on for the census because don't know how to but it is H.O.107/2495 1851 for Darowen Noddfa. Heads of 2 families were Edward Rowland who was in 1851 a Pauper on Relief but normally a farm labourer with his family at an address just called ?Wern and a Richard Rowland age 36, 2 doors away born Cemmes with his family. He was also on Parish Relief. He was living in No.2 Tynlechwedd and also normally a farm labourer.
The interesting thing is that the enumerater had made a comment down the side of the census which says: "Nos 3-9 were in tents in my District and were not enumerated as not inmates of any dwelling house."
I am wondering if they were also Travellers although there is no other clue.
The other thing that made me stop and think is that in Northamptonshire in the area where Alice Emily was staying with Travellers I noticed a strange middle name (can't remember who had it because no reason to take notice of it) but it was Darowen (spelt variously) which is the first part of Darowen Noddfu.
No longer know what to think about this apart from the fact that there is almost certainly more than a passing Traveller connection ................ this is getting quite interesting! Have not found 1841 census for them but, if Travellers, wouldn't know where to look!

This is possibly my second connection with Travellers - am also related way back to the Broughs of Biddulph Moor who were possibly Travellers (via a GGG Grandmother - Sarah Brough).

Sue

[Olde Crone Holden]

Sounds very likely, Sue. All you have to do now is prove it, haha.

There is a lady on GR who has a huge database of traveller/gypsy families and who offers free lookups. There is also a gypsy museum at Reading which has a lot of paperwork - they do not offer a research service though, so you would need to go in person I think.

OC