I've got a terrible headache from this one, can't see the wood for trees

[Janet in Yorkshire]

Sorry it's long. I've been wrestling with this one for a few years:(

I am trying to find out about WW1 soldier William Edward Sellers who is commemorated on the village war memorial at Langtoft in East Yorkshire. I can find neither service record nor pension record for him, but the record of UK soldiers died in the Great War records that WES was born Ecclesall (Bradford) but residing at Langtoft.
This fits with the appearance on Langtoft war memorial, also data on 1891 census http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/65...l=ReturnRecord
Fred Sellers with wife Mary, step son William Edward Wray b Ecclesall. ( 1886 birth reg for Wm Ed Wray & 1889 marriage of Fred Sellers & Mary Jane Wray.)
By 1901 Fred & Mary had moved to Langtoft but now have a son William Sellers, aged 7 , born Driffield. Is this William Edward formerly Wray, or another child?

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7814/YRKRG13_4521_4523-0021/28877162?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3findiv%3d1%26db%3duki1901%26rank%3d1%26new%3d1%26MSAV%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gss%3dangs-d%26gsfn%3dfred%26gsfn_x%3dXO%26gsln%3dsellers%26gsln_x%3dXO%26msrpn__ftp%3dLangtoft%252c%2bYorkshire%252c%2bEngland%26msrpn%3d1681948%26msrpn_PInfo%3d8-%257c0%257c0%257c3257%257c3251%257c0%257c0%257c0%257c5292%257c1681948%257c0%257c%26uidh%3db78%26pcat%3d1901UKI%26fh%3d0%26h%3d28877162%26recoff%3d%26ml_rpos%3d1&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord

The spanner in the works is a Driffield birth registration for a William Sellers Q2 1894. Yorkshire BMD shows this to have been in the subdistrict of Driffield; the later Sellers children were registered in the subdistrict of Langtoft, as were children of another Sellers family.
I can't find a death for W E Wray, nor BOTH he AND the 1894 William in census. A further complication is that there were also a couple of William Sellers born Ecclesall c1886, who remained in the Bradford area.
All opinions, please.

IF William Wray became Sellers and passed himself off as born Driffield, why would the army record have born Ecclesall?

Jay

[JBee]

Two things -

1. a lot of WW1 records were destroyed during the blitz - only a certain percentage survive.
2. if they died in service there wouldn't be any pension records.

Wouldn't William Sellars in 1901 be aged 15 if he was born c1886.

It maybe the last place in Yorkshire that he'd lived and thought he'd been registered there. Perhaps his mother had been married before or lived with someone using their name and William was registered with his father's surname.

[JBee]

So Mary Jane Wray married Fred Marshall Sellers in Beverley in Yorkshire in Jun 1889 when Mary Jane was approx 22.

Have you got her in the 1881 census?

[Janet in Yorkshire]

I have Mary Jane (born Butterwick ) in 1871 census

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7619/NRYRG10_4825_4828-0319/10212838?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1871%26h%3d10212838%26ti%3d5538%26indiv%3dtry%26gss%3dpt%26ssrc%3dpt_t53847715_p13886056512_kpidz0q3d13886056512z0q26aidz0q3d95447878885z0q26pgz0q3d32771z0q26pgplz0q3dpidz0q257caid&ssrc=pt_t53847715_p13886056512_kpidz0q3d13886056512z0q26aidz0q3d95447878885z0q26pgz0q3d32771z0q26pgplz0q3dpidz0q257caid&backlabel=ReturnRecord

Haven't found her yet in 1881.

Jay

[JBee]

Think I've found the birth of William Edward Wray - registered Sept qtr 1886 in Bradford.

However think there's been a bit of a transcription error in army records - Bradford covers place called Eccleshill
check freeBDM.

[JBee]

http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl?start=1886&end=1886&sq=3&eq=3&type=Births&vol=9b&pgno=225&jsexec=1&mono=0&v=MTQwOTA2NDExMDowN2EyN2E5N2EwMTFiNDYwNGY0YjEzOTUwYTRkMzI3NWQ4YzE0N2I1&searchdef=given%3DWilliam%2520Edward%26db%3Dbmd_1402349149%26sq%3D1%26surname%3DWray%26end%3D1891%26type%3DBirths%26eq%3D4%26start%3D1885&action=Find

[Janet in Yorkshire]

Think I've found the birth of William Edward Wray - registered Sept qtr 1886 in Bradford.

However think there's been a bit of a transcription error in army records - Bradford covers place called Eccleshillcheck freeBDM.

That's no surprise! Out of the UK soldiers killed in the great war records for 8 of the men on the war memorial I'm researching, I've got Sowerby for Sewerby (two very different places) and also Stanford Bride for Stamford Bridge. So a mistranscription of Eccleshill is quite possible. I don't know Bradford at all, I know Ecclesall Rd in Sheffield and believe there is a place called Eccleshall in Staffordshire.

I thought I'd got WES sussed, until I found that 1894 birth registration. Surely Mary wouldn't have called her son William Edward unless the first one had died 1891-1894??

In 1911 census, the one claiming to have been born at Driffield in 1894 was working on a farm in Kilham

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&db=1911england&rank=1&new=1&MSAV=1&msT=1&gss=angs-d&gsfn=william&gsfn_x=XO&gsln=Sellars+&gsln_x=XO&msrpn__ftp=kilham&uidh=b78&pcat=1911UKI&fh=0&h=31538016&recoff=&ml_rpos=1

Jay

[JBee]

Have you found him ON THE CWGC site? Sometimes it put who his parents were. Did for my uncle and their address too.

[JudithM]

Afraid it doesn't help with finding his parents but here is William Edward(s) Sellers in 1911 - aged 23, born Bradford and already in the army. http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/23...l=ReturnRecord I see the CWGC entry doesn't have age or parents for him :(

[Janet in Yorkshire]

Thanks for looking, Judith,
I think the soldier may have been one of the William Sellers with a Bradford birth reg (makes it even more confusing.) Over the years, I have tried to chase them all up by following through in every census but I've generated reams of papers and have got in such a muddle.
WES is actually commemorated on 2 village memorials - the one I'm researching and also the one in Langtoft. I think he probably was a farm lad and worked in the village of my interest as I can find no Sellars connection at all with this village. However, there was the Fred & Mary family living in the village of Langtoft, and the UK soldiers died in the Gt War gives him as a Langtoft resident. So I feel he's got to be connected with them somehow.
There is just one other avenue I may be able to explore - if he was an East Yorks farm lad, there's a slight chance he served in the Wolds Waggoners (civilians rather than soldiers) who were part of the ASC. I think their records are on line and it would include pob & age at enlistment 1912/13.
But I'm still left with the problem of what became of Fred's stepson William Wray. As it's a project someone asked me to research 4/5 yrs ago, I don't really want to fork out for the Driffield birth cert. I will be going to the record office within the next 2/3 weeks and intend to look at Langtoft PR (small village so won't take long) and perhaps also to look at Driffield bp register.

Of the 9 men commemorated on the war memorial in question, the service records of only 3 of them have survived. Then there's the roll of honour in the church and also the men born & bred in village, but moved away!:D I must learn to say "NO!"

Jay

[Janet in Yorkshire]

:( Seems William wasn't in the waggoners, although his brother John (born Skipsea c1890) was and survived the war.

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1262/30850_A001388-01637/3290302?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dmedalrolls%26so%3d2%26pcat%3d39%26rank%3d1%26new%3d1%26MSAV%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gss%3dangs-c%26gsfn%3djohn%26gsfn_x%3dXO%26gsln%3dsellers%26gsln_x%3dXO%26msbpn__ftp%3dskipsea%26cpxt%3d1%26uidh%3db78%26cp%3d11&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

Can't see a service or pension record though.

[JudithM]

William Edward was in the Yorkshire Regiment http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/12...l=ReturnRecord

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&db=UKsoldiersGreatWar&rank=1&new=1&MSAV=1&msT=1&gss=angs-d&gsfn=william+edward&gsfn_x=NP&gsln=sellars&dbOnly=_F8007A65%7c_F8007A65_x%2c_F0007D1B%7c_F0007D1B_x%2c_F0007CF4%7c_F0007CF4_x%2c_F0007D21%7c_F0007D21_x%2c_F0007D22%7c_F0007D22_x%2c_F0005787%7c_F0005787_x&uidh=rg1&pcat=39&fh=0&h=416396&recoff=7+8+9&ml_rpos=1&hovR=1

[Janet in Yorkshire]

Thank you Judith, I do appreciate your time. The regiment is another reason I think he was an East Yorkshire boy rather than from the West Riding, with its own regiments.
Neither the medal card nor the died in the Great War record indicate ages, though, whilst the records for the waggoners give pob. current abode, age on joining, ht, physical description - so useful if the service record has not survived. They've helped me a great deal in sorting out which Fred Bloggs was the one I want.
It;s a bit daunting for me looking through their records - I remember several of them from my childhood. It wasn't until years later that I discovered about them acting in a transport service which went to the front. No one ever pointed out what they'd done and experienced, the horrors they must have seen; no medal wearing and joining in parades on Remembrance Day. The only people mentioned were those on the war memorial, although no one knew who most of them were, none of them born and still living in the village, although five of them have a connection with my tree! This is why I'm also trying to put together some sort of collection about all those with a village connection who served in some way.

Jay

[JudithM]

We have a brass plaque in our village church listing the 61 village men who served in the First War and survived ( only 3 villagers were killed). I'm in process of trying to record as much as I can about each of the 61 - service records where I can find them as well as which families they belonged to (only 20 different surnames amongst them as many were siblings or cousins) where they lived, what their occupations were pre war and what happened to them when they came home and I too remember many from my childhood.

[annswabey]

There's a will for him here, although you have to pay to get it, but presumably it would name Father/ Mother

https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Wills?Surname=sellers&Year=1915

[Janet in Yorkshire]

Thank you for that Ann. I'll have a word with the "woman who wants to know." If I don't find any answers at the record office, I'll probably get the will myself just to satisfy my curiosity!

Jay

[Janet in Yorkshire]

Update - yesterday I went to the record office and searched Langtoft bp & burial registers, but found nothing relating to the Sellers family 1891 - 1901.
I then looked at the records for the town of Driffield. Like the Langtoft records, they were very faint and unreadable in places, but I did manage to make out the 3 Apr 1894 bp of William Sellars, s/o Fred Marshall & Mary Sellars (born March 1894.) I didn't see a burial record for William Edward Sellars/Wray.

On the attestation form for one of the other lads I've been exploring, I recall seeing that he'd been handed a paper by "W Sellers." (I think this was for one of the lads who'd joined the Wagoners (ASC Reserves pre 1914) because the place of attestation was a village, rather than a town. I think I'd envisaged this was probably a fellow farm lad.)
The 1894 William Sellars, s/o Fred & Mary, was a farm lad at Kilham in 1911. His birth registration & bp entry give the single name William. The Langtoft village war memorial & also the plaque in the church record the name William Edward Sellers; the war memorial I am researching is inscribed William Sellers.

*runs off thread hysterically, whilst scratching head about all the possible William Sellers(Sellars) William Edward Sellers and William Edward Wrays.*

Jay

[Janet in Yorkshire]

I think I may have had a bit of a breakthrough. Tried following through likely William Sellers (born Bradford ) in census 1891 - 1911 and managed finally to complete by finding matches.
That left me with the following, whom I had thought originally was one of two above

Afraid it doesn't help with finding his parents but here is William Edward(s) Sellers in 1911 - aged 23, born Bradford and already in the army. http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/23...l=ReturnRecord I see the CWGC entry doesn't have age or parents for him :(

These soldiers were in the 1st Yorkshire regiment. I've just googled and found a site for the regiment, which includes a roll of honour:

http://www.ww1-yorkshires.org.uk/html-files/database-search-result.php

So, that seems to confirm that the 1911 census entry Judith posted is the WES who died on 11 Mar 1915. As the Langtoft memorial stipulates William EDWARD Sellers, I'm sure this was William Edward Wray, aka Sellars, stepson of Fred Sellers, blacksmith of Langtoft.

I don't know why Fred & his wife called a later son William Sellars. Also, if WES was in the army in 1911, and I'm looking for a lad working on one of the local farms for a year, then the William Sellers on the memorial I'm investigating could be a different William Sellers/Sellars???? Haven't found another likely candidate in the soldiers died in the Great War or on the CWGC site. The only other thing I have is one of my other farm lads attested and joined the Army Service Corps reserves on 14 July 1913, and was given his paper by "W Sellers." Back to square one - will the real William Sellers stand up, please? (Most of my farm lads were signed on by Captain Sykes (recruiting officer based at York) of The Duke of Wellington's W Riding Regiment.)

Jay

ETA - sorry, that link takes one back to the start of the regimental index:(

[Janet in Yorkshire]

Update - 1) Seek and ye shall find 2) never believe all that you read 3) NEVER give up

1) I recently found a local newspaper report with an article about the death of W E Sellers - it gave full name William Edward, date of death, regiment, age and confirmed that he had previously served seven years as a regular soldier before being placed on the reserve list and then called up to serve again at the outbreak of war.

This tied together various snippets discussed on the thread and I feel pretty confident that I can prove a potted biography of him. What a shame that there is no actual documentation showing these two sons of Mary (William Edward Wray aka Sellers and William Sellers) in the same place at the same time.

2) The name for the place of birth of WES on the only surviving military record is EccleshAll Bradford - turns out it was neither Eccleshall nor Ecclesall; it was Eccleshill, as recorded in 1891 census & Exelhill in 1901.

3) Never give up has always been my maxim and it's especially important now, because new resources are constantly becoming available on the internet. I usually do blanket searches for my main surnames each time I come across a new database, but I forget about the twigs and all my other mini-projects.

Jay

[Janet]

Well done Jay. it is good to hear these success stories. It does give hope to others.

Janet