Master Cabinet Maker

[Guest]

My Great Grandfather was a Master Cabinet maker between abt 1870 and 1900 ,I was wondering where would he have made them would he have maybe had premises ? if so where could I look for any records ? My ambition is to maybe one day own a piece he had made.
Thanks

[Olde Crone Holden]

Unless he was really famous I think you will struggle a bit.

Remember at this time there was hardly any mass produced furniture so there were thousands of cabinet makers everywhere. He might have worked from a shed or workroom in his home.

My late FIL was a Master Cabinet maker but by the time he died he was working for G-Plan, making turned chair legs on a machine! Later than your man, admittedly, but still proof that skill didn't guarantee success.

OC

[Guest]

Thanks OC I did think there were quite a lot of them about , so there would not have been an apprenticeship then? I suppose he learnt from his family as most of them did the same thing.
Hows the knee by the way?

[Olde Crone Holden]

Sorry Val, I've been out most of the afternoon.

I would think he did do an apprenticeship, but you never know, some of mine became "Masters" without ever doing an apprenticeship, haha. One way you might be able to tell is by where he was living on census and whether he has any apprentices living with him. If he really WAS a Master, I would expect him to have an apprentice or two. Also, what kind of circumstances he was living in, e.g. nice area, a few servants etc.

(Knee no better, but thanks for asking. I think I'm stuck with it now).

OC

[Guest]

well he did own his own house and lived there throughout his married life, so I suppose he must have not been hard up? but no mention of employing anyone.

Shame about your knee must be frustrating for you

[garstonite]

My thoughts are that he would have served an apprenticeship - and would more than likely have acheived his City and Guilds Certificates
level one = Craft and design Cabinet Making
level two = Intermediate Cabinet Making
level three = Advanced Cabinet Making
level four = Master Cabinet Maker

I qualified in one /two/three in Carpentry and Joinery .........I don`t know about 1870-1900 - but - to ensure that you were allowed to join the "Union" - you had to produce your certificates to prove you were a tradesman to work on site or in a Joinery Shop ...I would presume it was the same for a Cabinet Maker ...
if this was the case - he would have been issued his City and Guilds Craft Certificates .....I still have mine ....
you could try contacting London City and Guilds to see if they can help ...I would presume if he did take his City and Guilds they would have a copy of his records

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_and_Guilds_of_London_Institute

here is the wiki info - try and google - city and guilds cabinet maker certificates - and see if you have any luck ...
good luck
allan
added...I have just been on the site to see about Certificates issued 1968 (my first Certificate )and it looks like records are kept ....City and Guilds first started in 1878 because of "Bogus Tradesman"

http://www.cityandguilds.com/search?n=0&q=certificates+issued+1968&s=relevance

[grumpy]

I was always under the impression that the title MASTER was only used if a person employed a certain number of apprentices in the business which I believe to be a minimum of
two in number.
As an earlier poster mentioned it would seem that in the 19th century cabinet making was a very popular pasttime. My g/gfather was a cabinet maker who got out of that business
became a Harmonium maker, presumably he only made the casing and not the internals of the musical instrument.
When I was a child we had a marvellous bookcase with finely carved doors, turned legs etc and made from blackwood. Unfortunately when my g/father died in 1951 the piece went
to auction and I believe it fetched 15 pounds, which at the time my mother couldn't afford. I wonder where that case is now, çause it would be worth a lot more than it sold for.

[Caroline]

Have you tried street directories? And also, it might well be worth looking in the the newspaper sites to see if he advertised at all.

[bubblebelle]

Hi Val, this is very unlikely to help. (I am dosed up on Oromorph) but I did find some apprentices listed to some carpenters within my ancestry. I think it was on FMP but could have been Ancestry or am outside chance was TNA... see no help, but also they may be too early as I was looking late 17-180i0's.

See no real help but just wanted to highlight the possibility of those records.

[Olde Crone Holden]

Oh, DURH! Where is he in previous census? You might spot him as an apprentice or journeyman.

I agree that he OUGHT to have served an apprenticeship but I have found quite few who didn't - perhaps mine were the bogus tradesmen! I also agree that it would be a bit odd for a Master NOT to have at least one or two apprentices - it was a nice little earner after all.

OC

[Guest]

thanks everybody just looked at the census records nowhere does he say he employs anybody,
Thanks Allan will have a look there, and Caroline, Grumpy would you buy it if you could I would,thanks Bubble hope your not ill ? you could be right OC the whole family seemed to be a Cabinet maker or Frame maker so maybe his Father taught him the trade.

[bubblebelle]

Sorry Val, a bit more coherent now. The apprentiship lists were TNA via Ancestry, but sadly only from 1710-1811, so way out of your time frame and of course you more experienced researchers would have known that. My granddad was a Master Cabinet Maker and worked at the Bank of Egypt! Working with the furnishings, fitted out the boardroom etc, this was more recent history of course but also shows the range of possibilities as to where someone worked.
No I am fine but post op. Really should have resisted putting in my fourpennyworth.

[Guest]

no you were fine I did understand what you meant hope you feel back to normal soon.

[Sylvia C]

Val .................

Husband's maternal grandfather, born in Wales, was a cabinet maker, who then went on to go to Theology College in Manchester, and onto the North Wales Wesleyan Methodist Circuit.


We have his Indenture Paper for a 5 year Apprenticeship with Master Morris Henry Roberts, signed September 1 1888


I understand the progression in those days was .............

Apprentice ............. for 5 years, although it would be 7 years in some other professions.

Journeyman ............ apprenticeship completed, but working for a Master. Able to work on his own, but not to take on apprentices

Master ............... able to take on apprentices, and sign indentures. A member of the Guild



In 1891 Richard is shown as a Cabinet Maker, boarding with another Cabinet Maker and his family ........... I've assumed that this would have been a Journeyman, ie already out of apprenticeship but not yet a master working on his own behalf. He would have about 3 years into his Apprenticeship


By 1901, he is visiting in Yorkshire, occupation Minister of the Gospel (Welseyan Meth) ......... so obviously has completed his training at the Theology College.


We have been able to find no proof of whether he actually worked as a Cabinet Maker, or whether he ever made anything for his family.

[Janet in Yorkshire]

Census returns only show that he had no apprentices LIVING IN with him. (The worker/employer bit wasn't always filled in.) I know it WAS usual for apprentices to live on the premises (after all, their parents had all but "made them over" to the craftsman and it was handy to have all that "free" labour on tap) but in some areas the boys may have lived at home. I do have census returns where sons, living in the family home, are described as "apprentice XXX." They didn't always take up the trade in adulthood and I've never been sure if this signalled i) the master was no good ii) the apprentice was no good iii) trade was poor and there was a surplus of "skilled" labour, so some did other things.

Jay

[Olde Crone Holden]

By chance last night I was looking for somehing in my tree and found this progression!



1871 Daniel Urquhart Mastr Blacksmith empl 2 men 2 boys (including one journeyman and one apprentice)
1881 Daniel Urquhart Blacksmith (only family living with him)
1891 Daniel Urquhart Horse shoer
1901 Daniel Urquhart Horse shoe maker

His father was also a Master Blacksmith so I am assuming that's where he learned his trade. I know blacksmith isn't the same as cabinet maker, haha, but it just shows how being a Master at anything doesn't stop you finishing up making horseshoes!

OC

[Guest]

thanks Sylvia Janet and OC been a great help.