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Can anybody read this? Good transcribers needed?

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  • Can anybody read this? Good transcribers needed?

    This was written in the corner of my grandads 1907 baptism Roman Catholic church entry.. it was added in 1930.

    I know he moved away from the area (briefly) and married a Annie Humble (nee conroy) in 1930 in a town called Carlisle. it was a civic registry office affair.

    So I know this addition is in relation to that event, but we have very little information and would love to know what this says...even one word can be a BIG help.

    Please, Anyone / good eyes / handwriting experts please chime in



  • #2
    Do you mean the bit in brackets that says nee Conroy? Sorry, of course you don't :o With you saying the bit on the corner I jumped to conclusions. You mean the rest of it I assume?
    Last edited by Chrissie Smiff; 18-07-14, 20:23.
    Chrissie passed away in January 2020.

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    • #3
      I think it is Latin, but the name Anna Humble is in there.
      Last edited by PeteW1959; 18-07-14, 20:23.
      Co-ordinator for PoW project Southern Region 08
      Researching:- Wieland, Habbes, Saettele, Bowinkelmann, Freckenhauser, Dilger in Germany
      Kincaid, Warner, Hitchman, Collie, Curtis, Pocock, Stanley, Nixey, McDonald in London, Berks, Bucks, Oxon and West Midlands
      Drake, Beals, Pritchard in Kent
      Devine in Ireland

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      • #4
        End word of first line looks like ...matrimonium...( then) contraxit cum Anna Humble...?
        Last edited by Gwyn in Kent; 18-07-14, 20:32.

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        • #5
          I think it translates as "and he was contracted in marriage to Anna Humble in the church of Santa maria on 3rd November 1930". Not sure of the place though
          Barbara

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          • #6
            Yes Chrissie all of it haha. I've mentioned Annie Humble and displayed (Nee Conroy) as a sort of rosetta stone, hopefully might help decipher the rest?

            I'm googling those words Gwyn, thanks!

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            • #7
              It looks like

              et ipse matrimomum contraxit cum anna humble i reclesias s. mariae cpud novocastium die 3 Nov 1930

              It may mean something like

              He contracted Matrimony with Anna Humble (church name or place? Saint Maria?) Newcastle on 3 Nov 1930

              I may be way off track though.
              Last edited by keldon; 18-07-14, 20:55.
              Phil
              historyhouse.co.uk
              Essex - family and local history.

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              • #8
                Thanks Keldron. The place does look like "Novocastrum" or Newcastle now you mention it.
                Barbara

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by keldon View Post
                  It looks like

                  et ipse matrimomum contraxit cum anna humble i reclesias s. mariae cpud novocastium die 3 Nov 1930

                  It may mean something like

                  He contracted Matrimony with Anna Humble (church name or place? Saint Maria?) Newcastle on 3 Nov 1930

                  I may be way off track though.
                  It actually reads
                  et ipse matrimonium contraxit cum Anna Humble in ecclesia S. Mariae apud Novocastrum die 3 Nov 1930


                  It's a long time since I did Latin O'level (as it then was) but this is pretty straightforward:
                  and he contracted marriage with Ann Humble in the church of St Mary in Newcastle on the 3 day of November 1930.

                  I can't remember all the rules/endings for the various cases in Latin but here Anna is Ann and Mariae is Mary (accusative and genitive cases respectively I think??)

                  It's great when you get these little notes added at a later date - usually by the parish priest - giving you further info. I found a load of these when I was looking at baptism records for a good few of my Irish RC ancestors and twigs.

                  Christine
                  Researching:
                  HOEY (Fermanagh, other Ulster counties and Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada) BANNIGAN and FOX (Ballyshannon, Donegal, Ireland and Portland, Maine, USA) REYNOLDS, McSHEA, PATTERSON and GOAN (Corker and Creevy, Ballyshannon, Donegal, Ireland) DYER (Belfast and Ballymacarrett) SLEVIN and TIMONEY (Fermanagh) BARNETT (Ballagh, Tyrone and Strangford, Down)

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                  • #10
                    Wow!! this is brilliant guys thanks!! It really helps alot!

                    Karamazov - this is the first time I've come across this kind of thing (it certainly is a gem tho!) Does this mean someone has went back to the church (St Michael's in this case) and told the parish priest these details to add them. Or has he been informed by the priest at St Marys?

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Mbrady View Post
                      Wow!! this is brilliant guys thanks!! It really helps alot!

                      Karamazov - this is the first time I've come across this kind of thing (it certainly is a gem tho!) Does this mean someone has went back to the church (St Michael's in this case) and told the parish priest these details to add them. Or has he been informed by the priest at St Marys?
                      With the Irish ones I found, I couldn't tell who did the little update notes but I imagine it was a parish priest who had been there in the same parish for donkeys' years and therefore knew everyone and what they were up to and went back to their baptism records when he married or buried them. Or possibly his successor who liked joining all the dots?
                      Whatever, it was a huge unexpected bonus to see these notes - even down to saying when someone who had emigrated to Maine died there giving DOD "as per letter received ..."

                      Not sure what might have happened given that it's two different sets of church records. Perhaps the same priest who had moved parishes or perhaps he was parish priest for two or more churches? Just speculating here though. Are St Mary's and St Michael' s near each other? Is the handwriting in the later note re marriage the same as or similar to the writing recording the baptism?
                      Actually, just noticed from your snip - the person who added the later info identifies himself as D O'Donovan - if the priest, perhaps you could trace his career?
                      Always more questions...
                      Christine
                      Last edited by Karamazov; 18-07-14, 22:44.
                      Researching:
                      HOEY (Fermanagh, other Ulster counties and Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada) BANNIGAN and FOX (Ballyshannon, Donegal, Ireland and Portland, Maine, USA) REYNOLDS, McSHEA, PATTERSON and GOAN (Corker and Creevy, Ballyshannon, Donegal, Ireland) DYER (Belfast and Ballymacarrett) SLEVIN and TIMONEY (Fermanagh) BARNETT (Ballagh, Tyrone and Strangford, Down)

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                      • #12
                        St Marys and St Michaels are a couple of miles apart. And hand writing in the later addition it totally different and no mention of a D O Donovan on the initial entry. I will try and track him down though and find out if he took over at the parish. interesting stuff for sure..and thaks for the translation Christine, its brilliant. I would of never of worked that one out..

                        Can I just ask though, anyone? ''and he contracted marriage with Ann Humble in the church of St Mary in Newcastle on the 3 day of November 1930'' Does that mean he married Ann Humble at St Marys Church....or..

                        he just renewed his wows or something? Because I have his wedding certificate and it states he married Annie Humble (Nee conroy) on the 15th July 1930 in Carlisle Registry Office, which is at least 50 miles away from both churches. ?

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Mbrady View Post
                          St Marys and St Michaels are a couple of miles apart. And hand writing in the later addition it totally different and no mention of a D O Donovan on the initial entry. I will try and track him down though and find out if he took over at the parish. interesting stuff for sure..and thaks for the translation Christine, its brilliant. I would of never of worked that one out..

                          Can I just ask though, anyone? ''and he contracted marriage with Ann Humble in the church of St Mary in Newcastle on the 3 day of November 1930'' Does that mean he married Ann Humble at St Marys Church....or..

                          he just renewed his wows or something? Because I have his wedding certificate and it states he married Annie Humble (Nee conroy) on the 15th July 1930 in Carlisle Registry Office, which is at least 50 miles away from both churches. ?
                          I'm certainly no expert re RC canon law but here goes - I'm sure someone better informed will come along if I've got this hopelessly wrong...
                          As I understand it, there cannot be a marriage after the civil one in the registry office. After all, they're already legally married. But there can be a convalidation ceremony of the civil marriage by the Catholic Church - this blesses/legitimises the civil marriage in the eyes of the church. It is recorded in the parish records and treated as a Catholic marriage.
                          Funnily enough, I've only recently found out my own parents were married "twice" in 1957 - in London and back home in church in Ireland. I now need to ask my mum the reason why and which came first! Will get back to you if her explanation sheds any further light on your case!
                          Perhaps I should have asked her before I launched into this explanation
                          Last edited by Karamazov; 19-07-14, 01:27.
                          Researching:
                          HOEY (Fermanagh, other Ulster counties and Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada) BANNIGAN and FOX (Ballyshannon, Donegal, Ireland and Portland, Maine, USA) REYNOLDS, McSHEA, PATTERSON and GOAN (Corker and Creevy, Ballyshannon, Donegal, Ireland) DYER (Belfast and Ballymacarrett) SLEVIN and TIMONEY (Fermanagh) BARNETT (Ballagh, Tyrone and Strangford, Down)

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                          • #14
                            No this is great, I appreciate the explanation. It makes perfect sense my grandad was staunch catholic and so was Anna Humble (I'm in contact with her grandson through ancestory, even have a picture of her) so I can well believe a convalidation ceremony could have took place. Quite why they decided to get married 50 miles away first in a registry office is a bit of a mystery. But seeing how it's recorded like this could mean there is a second entry in St Marys records I can look up., to a add a little more interest

                            Your parents story sounds quite similar to whats happened here, maybes it was quite a normal thing to do back in the day.

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                            • #15
                              Regarding later notes added to baptism records, I have only come across this once.

                              It was for baptism records for a garrison church at Shorncliffe, near Folkestone, Kent.

                              Given that soldiers' families then went off in all directions to many other areas, ...and countries... I was surprised to see many added notes regarding marriages in many varied places. Croydon, Hampshire and Ireland are a few I remember, but I have no idea how the information was gleaned.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                My friend's daughter married a non-UK national in his country, after completion of all the necessary paperwork, so that the marriage was valid and recognised by the UK authorities. However, the bride was RC and the groom a recent RC convert. Some months later, a "marriage service" and nuptual mass was conducted at the RC church in the bride's home town.
                                I asked about the details of the procedure, for family history purposes, and was told that the couple had wanted to be "married" in the eyes of the RC church, and that when they disappeared into the vestry, they signed the church marriage register only. The registrar had NOT needed to be in attendance to witness the vows and legitimise the marriage (as had happened in the case of the bride's parents) because in the eyes of the civil authorities, the couple were already legally married, and the event had been for "religious" purposes only.
                                (I believe marriages conducted in RC and most other non C of E venues still require registrar attendance to legitimise the proceedings? I was twice a bridesmaid in these circumstances and on both occasions, the registrar was there supervising the signatures in their own register.)

                                Jay
                                Janet in Yorkshire



                                Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

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                                • #17
                                  Not been around lately but can I just put in my pennorth worth?
                                  In 1930, the Depression years, didn't people around all over the place to find work? Newcastle is north east (think Jarrow and the Jarrow marches) and it was well known that the area was hit hard during the depression years.
                                  Might it be they simply went looking for work in Carlisle and then married there?
                                  Twiglet

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                                  • #18
                                    I have some nonconformist records where "notes" were added to bapisms at a later date. In one Chapel, a mini family history was kept for each person baptised, which was the most wonderful find!

                                    Judging by the inaccuracy of some of the dates given, the events such as marriage/death etc were reported by family members and some information was taken from letters received by former congregation members in America - such letters were read out during the services and were often published in the Chapel magazine.

                                    To add to the RC marriage discussion, before civil registration, Catholic couples had no choice but to marry in the C of E church. This was done in the vestry with no religious ceremony and the couple would almost certainly have had a nuptial mass at a later date when the opportunity arose.

                                    OC
                                    Last edited by Olde Crone Holden; 19-07-14, 09:53.

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                                    • #19
                                      I've found it always useful to look up RC baptisms as they can give you so much more info. Mind you it's a hit and miss what extra you get.

                                      For instance I have a couple from Ireland marrying in 1860 in England - the priest gave both the bride and grooms parents names not just the father's.
                                      Unfortunately not the mother's maiden names.

                                      Then you get the names of godparents and often their addresses to - which can help find a connection between families.

                                      As above you can also find out who when and where they married (if the information has been passed back to the original parish).



                                      Researching Irish families: FARMER, McBRIDE McQUADE, McQUAID, KIRK, SANDS/SANAHAN (Cork), BARR,

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                                      • #20
                                        Thanks for all your input guys, it really is an interesting read! and at the same time educational.

                                        I'm pretty clueless on anything religious I'm sad to say, but at the end of my hunt, there is a good chance I'll be speaking Latin

                                        mb

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