McDermott / Savage “problem”

[DoctorGeoff]

Sorry that this goes on a bit, but it is the current brick wall.

The problem is to determine why members of two apparently separate branches of the McDermott family referred to each other as “cousins”. We have Hugh Patrick McDermott – otherwise Hughie - (b. Waterford 1874) on one side and two members of the other side
- Frederick Hugh McDermott (otherwise “Freddie Mac”, b. 1898, Cheshire)
- Mary Wardle Thompson (b.1896, Derbyshire) – otherwise “May Savage” or more formally as Mary Thompson Savage.

May Savage is of particular interest, as she stayed in Dublin with Hughie McDermott in 1941 at the time of the blitz on Belfast. Her oldest son (Joseph – or Joey) was shot down over Belfast (as an Air Gunner, on night-fighters, in the RAF), and May came to Dublin with her two remaining sons (Gerald and Stanley). My wife can remember Gerald and Stanley trying to console May after the news of Joey’s death. Thus, my wife, a grand-daughter of Hughie McDermott, met May Savage, Stanley Savage and Gerald Savage, in the house of Hughie McDermott.

Each branch of the McDermotts used a lot of the same first names for their children in the late 19^th Century. This could be just co-incidence, or it could suggest that there was a lot of communication between the two sides. The branch that went to England in the 1870s has a family legend about “Another branch heading into the South of Ireland”, but we have no proof either way. We have the branch that went to England pretty well sorted, but can find no connection with the Waterford/Dublin side.

Geoff

[kathsgirl.48]

I have a McDermott in my family tree who married into my Brady family in Rathmines Co.Dublin.

Patrick Brady: Marriage 9th Jan 1882 ‘Full age’ (21 or over) of Rathmines, married Mary McDermott of Rathmines, ‘Minor age’ dau of Thomas McDERMOTT a Labourer & Cath NEILL of Rathmines, in RC Church, Our Immaculate Lady of Refuge, Rathmines.

[DoctorGeoff]

Thanks for that Teresa
Not one of "my" McDermotts, but it does bring another question to mind:
My (or rather my wife's ggrandfather) Patrick McDermott gave his birthplace as Dundalk when he was married. I can find no record of his having been baptised there. So:
1 - I assume that he could have born somewhere else, and brought up in Dundalk.
2 - I cannot believe that in C19 Ireland, any family would only have the one child.

Either way, where do I look next?
Any suggestions will be welcome.
There is one other point. By the time Patrick McD married, he was a skilled fitter/turner. I cannot see him getting to this without an apprenticeship. He did work for the Railway, but there were no Works in Dundalk. The only other trades/industries that might apply would be Marine Engineers or Millwrights. Ideas anyone?

Geoff

[Janet in Yorkshire]

Thanks for that Teresa
Not one of "my" McDermotts, but it does bring another question to mind:
My (or rather my wife's ggrandfather) Patrick McDermott gave his birthplace as Dundalk when he was married. I can find no record of his having been baptised there. So:
1 - I assume that he could have born somewhere else, and brought up in Dundalk.
2 - I cannot believe that in C19 Ireland, any family would only have the one child.

Geoff

I am intrigued by the statement I've highlighted - when and where was the marriage of Patrick? Civil registration of RC events in Ireland came too late to help me with my family history research, so I've never had need to look at Irish BMD certificates. However, I had always presumed that until 1921/2, certificates would have the same format as those for England and Wales, as Ireland was still part of the Union of the United Kingdom. Do I take it that the marriage certificate recorded place of birth, rather than (or as well as) place of residence at the time of marriage?

Jay

[vera2013]

Geoff

I have been looking at this and wonder if you could clear up a few things and maybe add some dates for the families if you have them.

I note there is a connection between the Savage family and Hugh (Hughie) McDermott but not sure what the connection is with the McDermott's of Cheshire/Lancashire. Maybe that is what you are trying to establish.

I am not finding anything in England on the Savage family. Was she Mary Wardle Thompson who married a Savage. Do you have the marriage details. I note that the children of that marriage could be still alive so I won't ask you to name them.

Can you give some info on Hugh Patrick's marriage. ??? Possibly to Anna Ryan and living in Dublin with their children. Hugh a Marine Fitter

Can you also give the date of Patrick McDermott's marriage to ? Mary Kavanagh 1875

Vera

[DoctorGeoff]

Hi Vera.
The connection I am looking for is between two branches of the McDermott family.
The family that went through Belfast to Glossop start with Patrick McD b. abt 1834 and giving his father's name as Owen. He married a lady called Agnes Mcmath. Mary Thompson Wardle, 1896-1980, (otherwise May Savage) was his grand-daughter. She went back to Belfast, Married a Jackie Savage, divorced him, went to Australia. The two surviving sons also went to Australia. And, yes, I am in touch with some of the family out there.

The family that stayed in Ireland also start with a Patrick McDermot, b. abt 1850, and giving his father's name as Hugh. He married Mary Kavanagh in Waterford in 1875. They moved up to Dublin after their son Hugh Patrick, 1876-1956, who married Annie Ryan.

May Savage always called Hugh Patrick "Cousin Hughie". One of her Cousins (another grand-child of Patrick 1934) also called Hugh Patrick "Cousin Hughie".

The Glossop McDermotts have a family legend that - quote - The family divided, with one lot going Protestant and going East, and the others staying Catholic and going South. Patrick (1834) is reputedly born in Monaghan - but no-one has yet been able to verify this, just as no-one has been able to verify that Patrick (1850) was born in Dundalk.

I have copies of most of the BMD certs from the Waterford 1875 marriage onward. My wife is the oldest surviving descendant of that line, and I would really like to crack the problem while she still is.

@janet/Jay
Thanks for making me check. You are right - the cert only has current residence shown. Patrick is in the 1901 Census giving his birthplace as Co. Louth, and it was another family member who said Dundalk. I an certain I have seen it in writing, so I have to pull the folder with all the Irish data, and go through that. There is another "cousin connection" that also traces back to Dundalk and goes dead in the mid-19th C as well.

Geoff

[vera2013]

Thanks for the information Geoff. I wondered if you had seen this baptism of Hugh Patrick

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&db=fsirelandbirth&rank=1&new=1&MSAV=1&msT=1&gss=angs-d&gsfn=hugh+patrick&gsln=mcdermott&msbdy=1876&msbpn__ftp=Waterford%2c+Ireland&msbpn=5321&msbpn_PInfo=7-%7c0%7c1652381%7c0%7c3250%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c5321%7c0%7c0%7c&cpxt=1&catBucket=rstp&uidh=326&_83004003-n_xcl=f&cp=11&pcat=34&fh=0&h=429581&recoff=5+6+26+38+39&ml_rpos=1

It gives father's place of birth as Ferrybank. I note Ferrybank is often recorded as Waterford but having googled it is geographically across the river in Co Kilkenny.

On the 1911 for Hugh Patrick, he gives his place of birth as Co Kilkenny.


Vera

[DoctorGeoff]

Hi Vera,
No, I have not seen the record of Hugh Patrick's baptism - I don't have an Ancestry subscription. I do have a copy of his birth cert. Of course, this does not give the father's place of birth. So, you may have given me a new avenue to explore.

The best way to consider Ferrybank is to ask Which One?
Cross the river heading north, turn right into Dock Road and you are in what was Ferrybank.
Carry on up the road to New Ross and you come to Ferrybank.

Yes, the "ownership" of Ferrybank has shifted over the years. Recently it has been with Waterford, and I understand that Kilkenny are trying to get it back. The birth cert for Hugh Patrick does state Waterford quite clearly. The website for Ferrybank Village describes it as "straddling two counties" -I am keeping out of the argument. This is not the only problem we have with 19thC county boundaries.

What I do have is some oral evidence that "The McDermotts came from Dundalk". It would take some time to set this out, so it is just on mental file at the moment.

Geoff

[vera2013]

Geoff

Took a look at the Fredk Hugh b 1898 Cheshire and Mary Thompson Wardle b 1896 Derbyshire and believe them to be the children of Hugh McDermott and Margaret Wardle (nee McDermott) who in turn are the children of Patrick (1834 ? Monaghan and Agnes Mcmath ?Monaghan) Patrick and Agnes lived in Hayfield/Hatfield, Derbyshire. Glossop reg district. Can you confirm this.

Monaghan is recorded many times in the various Census as the place of birth with a couple of census records for Castleblayney, Monaghan. There is one exception for Patrick and Agnes' child Edith A b 1877 for whom there is a baptism certificate for Bessbrook, Co Armagh.

Now need to look a bit closer at 'Cousin Hughie' - Hugh Patrick b 1876 Waterford/Kilkenny and his grandfather Hugh whose name you got from the marriage cert of Patrick McDermott and Ann Kavanagh 1875 Waterford. Did the marriage cert give an occupation for Hugh McDermott? or whether he was deceased at the time of their marriage?

Vera

[DoctorGeoff]

Hi Vera
- Frederick Hugh McD (b.1896, Cheshire) was known to the Dublin McDermotts as "Freddie Mac. He was the son of Hugh McD (b. 1870) and Bertha Gillibrand. He was a regular visitor to the home of Hugh Patrick McD in Dublin. I have actually spoken to his daughter Beryl
- Mary Thompson Wardle was the daughter of Margaret McD and Alfred Wardle. She was known to the Dublin McDermotts as May Savage. She married John Savage in Belfast and had three children. The oldest (Joey) was shot down over Belfast in 1941, aged 20. I have him down to the specific grave in Dundonald Cemetary. It is easy to get confused over him as the RAF records record a training accident in East Anglia (must not let the Germans know that we have night-fighters).

Both Freddie Mac and May Savage were the grandchildren of Patrick McDermott believed b. Monaghan in 1834. This Patrick did marry Agnes McMath.

Patrick McD and Mary Ann Kavanagh.
On the marriage cert, Patrick's father is given as Hugh and there is no indication that he was dead. His occupation was given as "servant". This could mean anything as most folk working in a big house would style themselves as servants unless they had a more important position. Equally anyone who worked for a Railway Company was a "servant".

Mary Ann's father is given as Arthur Kavanagh, a "shopkeeper". He was certainly alive in the 1901 census (in Mulgrave Row, Waterford) at age 75.

There is some connection between this branch of the Kavanaghs and Graignamanagh in Co Kilkenny This is not clear, but could also refer to Tinnahinch in Co Carlow which is across the river (a bit like Ferrybank in Waterford). There is a question mark in my mind over Mary Ann (b. 1857 ) and her brother Morgan (b.1843). I suspect thar Arthur may have married twice and cannot prove or disprove it. Certainly, Morgan's son John (b. 1884, Waterford) called Hugh Patrick McD a "cousin" as well. The connection is a bit clearer this time.

Geoff

[vera2013]

Geoff

I have been trying to see a baptism for Patrick (1850) but no luck, as you are probably aware, on Roots Ireland. I did a wide search for Louth McDermott's with father Hugh and came up with the following

Mary Ann 1844
Hugh 1846
Bernard 1851
Teresa 1854
Alice 1856
Bridget 1856
Jane 1859

There is also a Marriage for Louth for a Hugh McDermott 1841.

I noted these are all very similar names to those Patrick (1850) and Mary gave to their children.
Have you checked any of these out previously?

I looked at shipbuilding in Waterford and apparently they had the biggest shipbuilding yards in Ireland in the 19c. Maybe where Patrick and then Hugh (1876) learned their trade. There was also of course the wonderful crystal factory.

Vera

[DoctorGeoff]

Hi Vera,

Some years ago I paid for a search of the Louth records (the guy had the whole set, and his fee was modest.
He came up with the same names as yourself, except for Mary Ann(1844), but he did come up with the Sponsor's names. I take it that these were as written down, since they were not terribly clear. Out of this comes two things:
1 - There is a gap between Hugh and Bernard, and I have found in the past that gaps often have a reason.
2 - One of the sponsors for Alice McDermott (1856) was named Gernon.

Have a look for Patrick McDermott - baptised Dundalk 1849. I have the Roots Ireland printout in front of me as I type. From this:
1 - This is the right age to fill in the gap in "your" names.
2 - The father is given as "Patt" McDermott. Patt is almost certainly a mistake, so the father could have been something else.
3 - The mother is given as Mary Robson - and I wonder if this should have been Mary Robinson.
4 - The sponsor is Margaret Gernon

The significance of Gernon is that yet another "cousin" of Hugh Patrick McDermott was a Bill Gernon from Liverpool. Bill is now dead, and I've tracked his family back to Ireland circa 1851 in Co Louth - near Dundalk.

To me, some of these bits are starting to fit together. I think my next step is to start tracking down some of the McDermott names from your list, and see where I get. Thoughts and/or suggestions will be welcome.

Geoff

[vera2013]

Geoff

That's very interesting. I was thinking that perhaps Bernard was in fact Patrick but I now see that gap. From my personal experience a lot of family members are known as different names from their baptism name.
I did, out of curiosity, bring up that 1849 Patrick with the Gemon/Gernon sponsor but disregarded because father was not Hugh. Could just be a mistranscribe. I wonder where the original documents are and if available. That is a tempting connection to the others you are aware of.

I would also check out any marriage for Hugh McDermot to a Mary Robson/Robsinson, likewise a Patrick McDermot although Hugh is the more likely. There was one in Louth for 1841.

Meantime I will look at Liverpool Bill Gernon to get the wider picture.

Vera

[kathsgirl.48]

Hi Geoff

You could look on this free website www.irishgenealogy.ie/ which have church records, RC and Church of Ireland Baptisms, marriages and burials. Lots of Savage and McDermott records! Mainly Co Dublin, but they are adding other Counties all the time, Carlow, Roscommon Kerry etc too.

Later Baptism have parents names and sponsors and marriage records give the parents names of Bride and Groom, Witnesses too. A lot of marriage records do state if bride or groom are from England or another country. Well worth visiting the website from time to time.

Just put in the Surname and then search.

[DoctorGeoff]

VERA - Look at your last post but one, and mine that followed ...
I am getting certain (the big guess) that Patrick McDermott b.1849, parents "Patt" McDermott and Mary "Robson" should be in the middle of the family of Hugh McDermott and Mary Robinson.
- can find no trace of any Mary Robson in Ireland of marriageable age.
- had a contact with a descendant of Hugh and Mary some years back - She has Hugh (1846) as Hugh Francis, and he became a Master Mariner If the big guess is correct, several things seem to fit (Marine engineering, the Gernons as a sea-faring family ...).
Hugh Francis ended up in Bangor , Co.Down running a small hotel - he then claimed to have been born in Co.Down, and became a staunch Ulsterman.
- the problem will be to prove the big guess?????

TERESA - another Moonraker? Not born here but moved in in 1971. BA14 postcode.

Geoff

[vera2013]

Geoff

The gap could indicate that another child was born and it could be Patrick bap 1849. However difficult to prove. If you could get the mc for Hugh and Mary Robinson it may link in somewhat with Patrick's bap certificate with names of witnesses, address. I'm not sure whether it would reveal father's occupation

The links to the Gernon family as sponsors for the children indicates close involvement with the family but were they actually related I wonder. The grandfather of William John Gernon b Liverpool 1902 (Bill) was John Gernon who was married to a Mary. Can't see a marriage in the UK for them so they may have married in Louth.

So we have

William John Gernon (Bill) born 1902 Liverpool, f John b 1875/7 Birkenhead,, Cheshire g/f John b 1851 Co Louth
Frederick Hugh McDermot (Freddiie Mac) b 1896 in Lymm, Cheshire f Hugh b 1871 Co Monaghan g/f Patrick born 1834 Co Monaghan
Mary Wardle (May Savage) born 1898 in Derbyshire m Margaret McDermot b Co Monaghan g/f Patrick born 1834 Co Monaghan

They all visited their 'cousin Hughie' in Dublin ie Hugh Patrick b 1874 Waterford f Patrick b 1850 Co Louth g/f ??? Hugh

How to find the connection, I am not sure. You could get certificates to reveal a possible link but you may have to delve back and sidewards to achieve this. I would start with a search for a marriage of Hugh McDermot to Mary Robinson which may reveal the father of the Groom and that it is Owen McDermot.
Also take a look at the John Gernon marriage 1871 Co Louth. He married a Mary. Wonder if she was a McDermot.

Vera

[DoctorGeoff]

Hi Vera

... ... Also take a look at the John Gernon marriage 1871 Co Louth. He married a Mary. Wonder if she was a McDermot.

Vera

No, as far as I know, she was Mary Rice, b.1851 in Louth.

Geoff