Garrison Church Registers

[Sue1]

I noticed under "reference library" on here that these Registers are at TNA.

Does this mean that the contents of the Registers kept by the Garrison Churches are notified to the Registrar General or are they perhaps not?

Sue

[Olde Crone Holden]

Sue

Church registers are nothing to do with the GRO and would appear in whatever diocese the Garrison church was. If overseas, then I suppose they stood alone and were reported to the C of E authoriies in the UK.

OC

[Christine in Herts]

I have a vague recollection that RAF clergy were deemed to be under the auspices of the Bishop of Maidstone. I don't know whether that's still the case.

A forces C of E chaplain usually has an archbishop's licence, so that (s)he doesn't need to keep applying for a fresh licence to officiate/preach/whatever every time (s)he's posted somewhere new.

That authority structure may or may not affect the location of registers.

Christine

[Sue1]

Many thanks for that OC and Christine.
I am interested in the Garrison Registers because I have an extremely elusive chap on my Tree (direct line) who has been a thorn in my flesh for about 6 years or more!
He was military and all his male children were military. It is very possible/probable his father was also military so I thought I would look at Garrison Registers for births overseas but since his Regiment is now in dispute I will only be guessing.
There are only four sightings of this chap -

1. the 1841 census where it states he was born "out of county" (Great Baddow, Essex)
2. 1846 death, same place in Essex.
3. 1st marriage in St. Michaels Church, Bishops Stortford, Herts - 19.4.1795 - no extra info on Certificate (Elizabeth Joceylin)
4. 2nd marriage - to Hannah Mabbs age 13, in St. Marys Church Great Baddow 19.10.1815

He is supposed to have joined the 83rd Regiment of foot in Newtown, Montgomeryshire but it had been disbanded by that time. A written document I have stated he joined (24.1.1787) age 18 (doubtful about age - baptism never found).

I don't know where he was born but Montgomeryshire/Shropshire is supposed to be the place.
I know he was a Bellringer of note and there is still a plaque to him and one of his sons in the belltower of St. Mary's Church, Great Baddow, Essex. [Tower Captain sent me a copy]
His first child was born in Stamford, Lincolnshire (baptised Stamford All Saints) 1797 - Robert Joslin Rowland
Supposed to have fought in Napoleonic War in several battles and injured in the hip at Salamanca. No pension, no medals - ordinary soldiers didn't get them then - were awarded after 1846 and the soldier had to be apply in writing - could have done neither as pretty sure he did read/write and he was dead in 1846.
He was a Sgt Master Tailor.
Have looked at apprenticeships but no sign of him learning his trade. Perhaps learned tailoring in the army.
Related Rowlands have been found in Essex, Norfolk, Nottinghamshire, Lincolnshire.
Both his marriages were C of E but both his wives were Quakers!!

Some conclusions, mysteries and "guesses"
He wasn't a regular soldier but a "volunteer".
The Loyal Lincolnshire Volunteers went off to Napoleonic War with a Lancashire Regt which used to be 83rd Foot (can't for life of me remember which number the new regiment is/was)
Whilst away at Napoleonic War his wife had children at regular intervals in Essex!
Sgt Master Tailors are HQ staff - they can be sent where the O/C needs someone.

Totally mystified + if he is Welsh, the Welsh naming system of the time may be causing confusion.
Somewhere along the way, the name Webster seems to be relevant - one son had this as a middle name and a chap in Nottingham who may or may not be James brother, has it as a middle name also.
I am suspicious that, despite the name, this chap is from Ireland - a lot came via Wales/Liverpool - few Irish records go back that far, however.

Sorry for rambling - this was just meant to be a quick thankyou for advice!!

Sue

[annswabey]

Most of the Garrison Registers at Kew cover much later dates. You could search their catalogue for coverage by putting WO 156 into their search, then click on "Browse by reference" which will give you a list of places and dates covered.

There are Muster Rolls at Kew for 83rd Foot (1st Battalion) from 1778-1840's and beyond. If he was in that regiment then hopefully he should be listed

[Christine in Herts]

If annswabey is on the case, you can rely on her info, as you can tell from her footer - she is a regular at TNA.

Christine

[JBee]

Have you tried the army list for the years you know he was in the army?

My central library used to have them on the shelf

don't know what's happened to them now they ve moved to new premises.

[annswabey]

The Army List just lists officers, unfortunately

[Sue1]

I did actually check the records for the appropriate time at TNA - the only relevant (possibly) one I found had joined in 1800 (this is odd in itself because the regiment was never re-raised as 83rd - James couldn't have been in it prior to it originally being disbanded because it was pre his "join-up" date.
I suspect James joined from the Lincolnshire Volunteers (I think there is some connection with Wales here but can't for the life of me think what it is - connection with the regiment I mean) - his only definite sighting was in Stamford, Lincolnshire in 1797 where there is a baptismal entry for a Robert Joslin Rowland - mother Elizabeth and father James (Tailor). This is a definite finding which I got from Stamford Library - his mother had been Elizabeth Joceylin (Joslin) before marriage and his father is named correctly and was a Tailor. However, on entry to whichever regiment he joined in 1800 for the Napoleonic Wars he was a Sgt Master Tailor. I understand that the rank he held makes him HQ staff which means during war or, presumably any other time, he can be used however the Colonel or O in C thinks fit which is how he got into three battles. He was at Cuidad Rodriguez, Bajados and Salamanca where he was severely injured in the hip.
I have checked, as have other co-researchers of this chap, for his apprenticeship as a Tailor - should be listed BUT if a relative trained him then it would not be listed...........most of James male children were also military and most were military tailors but all in the 73rd Regiment of foot (used, I think, to be called the Essex Regiment).
I don't know where James was born but he was recruited by the Army in Newtown, Montgomeryshire, when he was 18 (I think he was probably younger - even the actual date of joining is given)
James married in 1795 in St. Michaels Church, Bishops Stortford, Hertfordshire - little on marriage doc and witnesses no help.
Have not found a birth for him (or one that can be proved) but if the date on the document I have is correct and he didn't lie about his age, then he was born in 1768). His wife Elizabeth was a Quaker and so was his second wife who was 13 when he married her but on both occasions the marriage took place in the C of E.

Sorry for late response - our power went off at 8am and came back on at 3.30pm!!! The council were cutting Trees and we still have overhead lines everywhere so power goes off when they are working!

Sue

[annswabey]

You said he didn't get a pension - how do you know that? Another possibility is the pension payment registers - if registers for the appropriate area have survived, his death should be listed in 1846, which would give a basic summary of his career.

[Sue1]

Just thought of something else - when I went to TNA to look at records for the 83rd for the appropriate time I only found one thing - a James Rowland joined in 1800/1801 (James Rowland moved to the Colchester general area in 1800) - he joined from Scotland.
1. The whole thing is a bit odd because how could they be records for 83rd dated 1800 because the Regiment was disbanded before 1769!
2. It was never re-raised as 83rd!!
Something very odd here - I know the disbanding and re-raising of Regiments is very ambiguous when I read about it and I suppose that must be the case.
When the 83rd was disbanded the 2nd btn went to Scotland as the Loyal ??can't remember BUT I don't think it was my James in the Regimental Book - he joined in Newtown, Montgomeryshire - perhaps they WERE re-raised.

Most odd!

Sue

[Sue1]

You said he didn't get a pension - how do you know that? Another possibility is the pension payment registers - if registers for the appropriate area have survived, his death should be listed in 1846, which would give a basic summary of his career.

Have checked pension records on line myself and another one of those looking for him has "done" TNA - I did the microfilm at TNA for assessments for injury pensions.

He wouldn't have got any Army Pension - if he was in Volunteer Regiments/Militia it wouldn't apply.

He didn't get any campaign medals either (for Napoleonic Wars or anywhere else as far as I know) because they were not issued to "ordinary" soldiers until 1846 and even then, they would have had to be able to read about it and then they had to apply in writing .................I am not sure James Rowland was very literate or maybe not literate at all.

The Pension Payment Book .............I did try to look at the Essex one - James lived at Church Chase, Great Baddow, Essex, from 1800 until he died so that is where he would have been paid if there was anything to be paid to him. When I was at TNA the Essex book was missing .............I got one of the staff to double check and he couldn't find it and no one knew where it was so that was not explored.

Sue

[annswabey]

As I said, there are Musters for the 83rd for the relevant period. Dont know anything about their history though, although no doubt a quick Google would provide it!

What do you mean by the Regimental Book?

[annswabey]

Do you mean you've looked at WO116? As you're not entirely sure of regiment, though, or date, it would be quite a search!

[Sue1]

It was quite a search but my husband helped!
I have to admit I am not sure if it was WO116 but pretty sure it was - it was a few years ago.
As for the date I searched I think it was quite wide-ranging - took a long, long time but I was mainly going for 1787 onwards (I have been trying to check a document which is on my ancestry Tree which actually states the day and the month he was supposed to have joined the 83rd BUT cannot access ancestry! "This page cannot be displayed".

As far as Pensions go, I am not sure he would have had one. If he served in a militia I am not sure he would have qualified?
He didn't serve "in the field" after Salamanca I imagine but it is possible he still served as a military tailor. I wonder if he was based at the barracks at Colchester at that time - it would have been close to home (Great Baddow).

When I said the "Regimental Book" I was referring to the "Muster Roll"!

I notice there is another Tree on ancestry that has him on it and the owner has him going on to serve at Waterloo - I am a bit sceptical about this but he may well be correct. I am not a paying member at the moment on Ancestry but I think I can contact this chap - will try and find out how sure he is of what he has put on his Tree.

I think the Essex pension book records would answer the question however.

I have had some contact with Barbara Chambers who did a lot of research on militia etc - she says she suspects he was Militia i.e. South Lincolnshire Militia (Stamford) and then perhaps Loyal Lincolnshire Volunteers at the end of his service.

I don't know where James Rowland was born and I don't know who his parents were - there is a possibility he was Welsh (but I think Shropshire) - if he was Welsh he may have been named under the Welsh naming system of course. Also, he may well have been born overseas if his father was military - I have tried the Indian records to no avail.

Sue

[annswabey]

There are Musters for Lincolnshire Militia too in WO13. Have you looked at those? Also what does his death cert say for occupation?

[Sue1]

Death Certificate says "Tailor".
I am pretty sure I have "done" the Lincolnshire Militia but I went to Lincoln Archives which are much closer to home. I did this search very early on and it was a kind of paybook - must have been the Muster Roll I think.
I found a James Rowland and a William Rowland - it told me absolutely nothing else about them - no age etc. I cannot be sure, especially with Rowland being a common name, that these were relevant and if they were, how to proceed with finding out more.
I do know, for what it is worth, that there are definite connected Rowland families in Northamptonshire (Northampton), Shropshire, Norfolk (Yarmouth) and Essex (various places). It is, however, only the James Rowland b 1765ish line, that was totally military - all, except for James and his oldest son were 73rd Foot and I have their military records.
I will revisit the militia list at WO13 TNA to refresh my memory - it is a while since I did my original research and had rather given up on James Rowland.
One thing that does strike me is that although he is most likely to be Lincolnshire Militia, he could also possibly have been Northampton Militia (Stamford is half in Lincs and half in Northants i.e. Stamford Baron).
On FMP (I am no longer a member so now have no access) there is a James Rowland and, if I remember correctly, another Rowland and there is a comment about "referring to Wales and Herefordshire". Also it mentioned "6th btn" (I gather this 6th btn refers to the Lincoln Militia, rather than the regiment they joined.)
When I contacted the Museum in Lancs about the 81st/83rd Regts - they told me that it would not be surprising for someone to refer to the 81st as the 83rd because it was really a re-raising of the 83rd.

Sue

[annswabey]

Musters don't generally give personal info apart from perhaps in the 1st and/or last a man appears in although with Musters this early, you may not even get that. You could follow those 2 men you found backwards and forwards in the Muster to see if any detail is given or you can rule them out on dates, for example.

There's this Rowland from Lincs in the TNA Catalogue- it should be on FMP. Perhaps worth a look


Reference:
WO 97/627/83
Description:

JAMES ROWLAND

Born STAMFORD, Lincolnshire

Served in 34th Foot Regiment; 48th Foot Regiment

Discharged aged 41

Date:
1809-1829

[Sue1]

Thanks for that. I actually know about this chap and I think he is definitely connected to the family in some way but have never been able to prove it or how he is connected. He was born in 1788. He is listed in Stamford as father of a new child also which died shortly after birth - it also says Pauper beside his name. Certainly he has been looked at very carefully by the three others searching for James Rowland as well as myself and also his record was applied for and received (military) - it is definitely not "our" James - there has to be a connection because I think either he or his child had the middle name Webster - that occurs in OUR James Tree i.e. his last child was James Webster Rowland and was not the chap you mention and in fact died quite young. The name Webster has to be the connection. However, just to make life difficult other middle names occur i.e. Sutton and Wade. Born also in Stamford Henry Wade Rowland has to be related but perhaps a brother or nephew.......just don't know.
Perhaps James was actually born in Stamford - I have been to Stamford Library on several occasions and thoroughly searched the Parish Registers they have there and for surrounding districts like Bourne etc - no sign.
I wonder if my James was born in the Workhouse - I am not sure Workhouses as such go back that far though. He may, of course, have been born overseas if his father was military but cannot prove that one way or the other.
The vast majority of the Rowlands were Tailors, military tailors or otherwise but no apprenticeships listed.
The James Rowland b 1788 was, I now remember, from his record, discharged from the 46th "old and worn out"!

Sue

[annswabey]

Have you managed to trace the James with the Army records forwards, although it probably wouldn't help anyway! As you mentioned the plaque in the church, was there ever anything in the local paper about him and/or his death?

Worn out was a common reason for discharge.....