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Can anyone help with military term?

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  • Can anyone help with military term?

    This may just be self explanatory but I wondered if it could have any further meaning.

    I believe I may have found my errant ancestors discharge from the military. The time and place corresponds with the 1871 census.

    His character is described as Very Bad and then under cause of discharge under miscellaneous 'ignominy' is written. I am wondering if this means just what it says or whether there is a criminal aspect to the discharge.

    Has anyone any experience of this type of record?

    I will add that the picture I have built up of this man is that he may have been a heavy drinker at times in his history.

    As soon after this record he changed his name I wonder if all of this is related.

    I have read this but am still none the wiser http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=D...nominy&f=false
    maybe I am just having one of those days.

    PS the era is the mid 1870's
    Bubblebelle x

    FAMILY INTERESTS: Pitts of Sherborne Gloucs. Deaney (Bucks). Pye of Kent. Randolph of Lydd, Kent. Youell of Norfolk and Suffolk. Howe of Lampton. Carden of Bucks.

  • #2
    this explains it and there is a lot if you google Bubble, I dont mean google Bubble you know what I mean

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    • #3
      Thanks Val, I must admit I had to google initially just to be sure of the definition... I just kept getting the Infamy Infamy speech in the Carry on Film but ignomy in instead.

      Yes I have been trawling google and have found quite a lot, but I haven't actually found anything that defines what sort of behaviours were related to this reason for discharge. There is a lot about WW1 and have found books with information c1830's and 40's but as I say not sure whar actually constituted the charge.

      My brain is not working too well today and I'm not sure if I explained myself or my query very well.

      Love the comment re googling bubble, :D have to admit feel I am in one today
      Bubblebelle x

      FAMILY INTERESTS: Pitts of Sherborne Gloucs. Deaney (Bucks). Pye of Kent. Randolph of Lydd, Kent. Youell of Norfolk and Suffolk. Howe of Lampton. Carden of Bucks.

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      • #4
        I have always understood "dismissed with ignominy" to mean that the man was dismissed the service without a character reference, for behaviour which was too much even for the Army to handle, lol. It would also mean loss of any privileges like pensions etc.

        There MAY have been a court case (either civil or military) but not always - just being a completely incapable and nasty habitual drunk would be enough to get rid of him as he would have been no use to man nor beast.

        I know of someone in recent times (1980s) who was discharged with ignominy after stealing the Mess funds, even though his family replaced the money and there was no (criminal) charge.

        OC

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        • #5
          Ah thanks OC. As someone above him on the sheet was discharged for felony so more likely the traits you describe. I had read re no pension etc.
          Last edited by bubblebelle; 09-06-14, 19:02.
          Bubblebelle x

          FAMILY INTERESTS: Pitts of Sherborne Gloucs. Deaney (Bucks). Pye of Kent. Randolph of Lydd, Kent. Youell of Norfolk and Suffolk. Howe of Lampton. Carden of Bucks.

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          • #6
            It wasn't uncommon - have seen it on lots of Army records. Was there any mention of a Courts Martial or Civil trial in his record?
            The National Archives, Kew – Research Service Offered
            Contact me via PM on Family Tree Forum or via my personal website - www.militaryandfamilyresearch.co.uk

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            • #7
              Yes when reading Army records I think it's unusual at that time to get away without a court martial at one time or another. Several of mine had successful careers in the Army yet still had three or four court martials to their name. So to be discharged with ignominy is perhaps a bit more serious than the norm.



              Researching Irish families: FARMER, McBRIDE McQUADE, McQUAID, KIRK, SANDS/SANAHAN (Cork), BARR,

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              • #8
                Thank you both... no, no mention of any court martials. Interestingly in the 1871 census his rank was bombardier whilst on the discharge sheet in 1874 he is cited as a private.

                I have as yet only found the list sheet in the end column it states if documents with Chelsea or the War Office, as some persons have written details stating Chelsea I would guess his went to the WO. Will have to look in wiki as to where these might be now.
                Bubblebelle x

                FAMILY INTERESTS: Pitts of Sherborne Gloucs. Deaney (Bucks). Pye of Kent. Randolph of Lydd, Kent. Youell of Norfolk and Suffolk. Howe of Lampton. Carden of Bucks.

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                • #9
                  Where did you find his record? On FMP?
                  The National Archives, Kew – Research Service Offered
                  Contact me via PM on Family Tree Forum or via my personal website - www.militaryandfamilyresearch.co.uk

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                  • #10
                    I think so. I know that sounds strange, but I was using the months free credits and downloaded a lot of stuff then to review later.
                    Bubblebelle x

                    FAMILY INTERESTS: Pitts of Sherborne Gloucs. Deaney (Bucks). Pye of Kent. Randolph of Lydd, Kent. Youell of Norfolk and Suffolk. Howe of Lampton. Carden of Bucks.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I suspect that ignominy means much the same as disgrace, but was a word more often used in the 19th century than now. In any event it means that the person discharged

                      under that appelation may never be employed in the armed forces again. Currently it also means that a person cannot be employed by any government service for a period of

                      7 years but I don't know if that also applied in 1871. As to what offence he committed it is possible that these would be recorded on his army documents which as I understand

                      it are currently available on FMP. Currently the most severe punishments I came across was discharged SNLR (Services no longer required).
                      Whoever said Seek and Ye shall find was not a genealogist.

                      David

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                      • #12
                        Thank you David. It is interesting re the 7 years before working within Government. From documents I believe somewhere between 1882 and 1885 he worked within Islington Council, so that would be just over that 7 year limitation, although by this time, 1875, he was using an assumed surname, although conjecture, finding this document has helped explain this name change.

                        From the Research area of this site, I believe my next stop to be TNA.
                        Bubblebelle x

                        FAMILY INTERESTS: Pitts of Sherborne Gloucs. Deaney (Bucks). Pye of Kent. Randolph of Lydd, Kent. Youell of Norfolk and Suffolk. Howe of Lampton. Carden of Bucks.

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