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Porter in Knockmena / Knockmenagh County Armagh, Ireland

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  • Porter in Knockmena / Knockmenagh County Armagh, Ireland

    I'm looking for ancestors of Robert Porter b.c.1846 (weaver) and his wife Ann (or Annie) Dixon (or Dickson) and also any information on 2 of their children, James Porter born 1871 and David Porter born 1875.

    Robert Porter's father was David Porter (weaver) but who was his mother? When and where were David Porter and his wife married and also when and where were they born and buried? Ann/Annie's father was Thomas Dixon / Dickson (weaver) and again I've no idea who her mother was. There's a possibility that her mother's forenames were Sarah Ann but I'm not sure. Again, where and when did Thomas Dixon / Dickson and his wife marry and where and when were they born and buried?

    I also don't know when or where Ann Porter nee Dixon died. From other records, it has to be between 1877 and 1891. I'm assuming she died in Ireland as there's no death in that time period on ScotlandsPeople website for an Ann (or variant) Porter with a maiden surname of Dixon (or variant). I looked at 5 possible deaths on the new online GRONI BMDs but every one of them was a spinster.

    I'm also looking for descendants of Robert and Ann's son James Porter born 1871. In 1891 census he is a lodger in the house of Patrick Higgins at 20 Graham Street, Addiewell, West Calder, Midlothian, Scotland. After that he disappears. Can anyone tell me if he married and when/where he died? I've not found a suitable marriage or death match on ScotlandsPeople for him.

    The other son of Robert and Ann that I'm looking for is David Porter, born 1875. I think he may have ended up in or around the area of Bacup, Lancashire, England. A David Porter of the correct age and place of origin appears on English censuses. He may have married Mary Hannah Banham in 1906 and had 6 children.

    Sorry that there's such a lot of stuff that I need to find answers for but hopefully there's something in all of it that somebody recognises and will get in touch.

    Recently posted on WDYTYA and Rootschat as well

  • #2
    is this yours? or have you reposted this for someone else? census entries and dates of marriage etc would be helpful.

    Comment


    • #3
      Statutory birth registration only started in Ireland in 1864 so you’ll need to rely on church records to find Robert & Ann’s parents. You don’t say what denomination they were. Judging by the other people in that area in the 1901 census, they were probably Church of Ireland or Presbyterian. I can see from Griffiths revision records that their landlord for the period 1871 to 1901 or thereabouts was Mordecai Johnston, a Quaker, so I suppose there’s an outside chance they were Quakers, but that doesn’t seem very likely. Perhaps you know.

      Statutory registration of Non RC marriages started on 1st April 1845, so again Robert & Ann’s parents marriages may be before the start of stat records. So again you’ll probably need to rely on church records.

      I can’t see any David Porter marriage in the area in the stat records for 1845 and the next couple of years. For Thomas Dickson there is a possible marriage. A Thomas Dickson married Mary Ann Sturgeon, marriage registered Lurgan 1846. That fits, but you would need to find Ann Dixon/Dickson’s baptism to confirm whether it is the right set of parents. Ann’s townland on her marriage cert might match that on Thomas’s marriage, though with them being weavers, they may have moved around.

      Knockmenagh is in Seagoe parish. The Church of Ireland records for that parish start in 1672. There is a second church at Knocknamuckly whose records start in 1838. Portadown 1st Presbyterian’s records start in 1838. Portadown Presbyterian’s records are on the rootsireland site (pay to view). However the Church of Ireland and the Quaker records are not on-line. Copies are held in PRONI (the public record office) in Belfast but a personal visit is required to access them.
      Elwyn

      I am based in Co. Antrim and undertake research in Northern Ireland. Please feel free to contact me for help or advice via PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Thanks Elwyn. I'd not heard of Knocknamuckly before, in fact till I started the Porter side in earnest, I'd never heard of Seagoe either. Blame the new GRONI database LOL. I've had Robert Porter's approx. dob, occupation and his father's forename for many years from IGI entries which tied in with Scottish marriage and death certificates for another of his sons, Thomas.

        As to denomination, I am erring on the side of Church of Ireland/Methodist as Robert and Annie married in St Gobhan, Seagoe. Another of their sons, Robert married in a Wesleyan Methodist chapel in Belfast and the Thomas who went to Scotland married in a United Presbyterian manse. The odd thing about the family in Scotland though is that while Thomas married in UP and his wife's parents married in CofS all of their children who survived to marry were split with the most of them marrying in RC and those descendants are still RC today. Only 2 children remained Protestant but neither married in church, both were civil ceremonies in Edinburgh which is some distance away from their home village.

        I've been reading up on all sorts in the past fortnight eg. parishes, townlands, baronies and registration districts. My brain hurts it's so different from Scottish research.

        I had figured that I need to see original parish registers but the chances of a visit across to Ireland are pretty much zero. I have hunted down everything I have online and posted in the hope that someone has researched further back than Robert and like me, doesn't keep their tree online.

        I have two things you could maybe answer for me;
        There are 2 birth certificates for Robert and Ann's children have Clanrole as the birthplace. Is this the same place as Clanrolla?
        How large an area is a townland on average and are there any records that, if they featured Robert or his father David, would give an exact abode within the townland?
        Last edited by GallowayLass; 12-04-14, 13:45.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by kylejustin View Post
          is this yours? or have you reposted this for someone else? census entries and dates of marriage etc would be helpful.
          it's mine. I'll post marriage dates later, got to go out now.

          Comment


          • #6
            Robert and Ann married 1 January 1867.
            Robert was born about 1846 in Knockmenagh. Annie born Lisnisky but her age is harder to determine. She was a minor on marriage so anywhere between 1846 and 1855 as the oldest she could have been was 20 and the youngest 12. I had found an entry on IGI years ago that indicated a baptism in 1846 but it's not on familysearch now.

            Annie was the informant on her husband's death, the subsequent last child's birth and the death of a daughter so she died between 1/5/85 and 31/12/91 as she was deceased on her son's marriage. The child's death was in Water Street, Portadown. Perhaps she moved after her husband died?

            The reason that Ann's mother may be Sarah Ann is because Sarah Ann Dixon of was informant on the birth of Robert and Ann's first child in 1867 just 3 months after the marriage.

            Comment


            • #7
              Gallowaylass,

              The GRONI database records births, deaths and marriages by registration district (which is the same as in Scotland). It’s just that if you need to switch from civil records to church records, they use parishes, not the civil administrative areas. Again I don’t think that’s so different to the Scottish system. Pre 1855 church records in Scotland are organized slightly differently to the post 1855 civil records.

              I wouldn’t worry too much about baronies. (They are basically a collection of parishes). They are unlikely to be relevant to most research.

              So Knockmenagh is in the civil registration area of Lurgan, but in the religious parish of Seagoe. Seagoe has 2 Church of Ireland churches, plus various other denominations.

              Townlands can be anything from 1 to 5000 acres (literally). They are a system of dividing land up that is unique to Ireland. Knockmenagh is 107 acres. In 1901 there were 8 inhabited households there:




              As far as finding where Robert lived, I can tell you exactly where that was. As I mentioned previously he is listed in the valuation records on plot 4B(b) in the townland. So that was a weaver/ag labs cottage on Mordecai Johnston’s farm. The revaluation records are on-line on this link:

              PRONI is the official archive for Northern Ireland and holds documents covering a period from 1600 to the present day


              You can see a map of the townland showing where that farm was on Griffiths Valuation. You can use the slider bar in the top rh corner of the screen to overlay a modern map on the 1860s map.



              Looking at the map I can see that Knockmenagh is now part of Craigavon. That’s a new town, so think Cumbernauld or East Kilbride, and you’ll get the idea. The site today is between Craigavon area hospital and the Knockmenagh roundabout on the A27. (Craigavon’s all roundabouts and lovely 1960s concrete). Looking at the farm on Google Earth, I can see that the agricultural land is still there, but the farmhouse and adjacent ag labs cottages appear to have been demolished, probably when the road was widened into a dual carriageway, in the 1960s or 70s.

              You ask whether Clanrole will be the same as Clanrolla. The answer is yes. Many of the townland names are anglicisations of Gaelic names, and the spelling often varies, according to the whim of the person recording the information. Be aware that there are two townlands both named Clanrolla around the Lurgan area. One is in the parish of Seagoe and the other in the adjacent parish of Shankill. They are only a few miles apart. So if searching you need to be sure you look for the right one. Different sets of parish records too, I am afraid.


              Elwyn
              Last edited by Elwyn; 12-04-14, 19:23.
              Elwyn

              I am based in Co. Antrim and undertake research in Northern Ireland. Please feel free to contact me for help or advice via PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                GallowayLass,

                You said that Ann’s father was Thomas Dickson. He’s listed in Lisnisky in Griffiths Valuation 1864, as being on plot 1 which was a farmhouse, outbuildings and just under 6 acres of land (so just above subsistence farming). There were several other Dicksons in adjacent properties, so presumably relatives. His name remains against the property until 1895 when a James Hughes takes over. Presumably Thomas had died, around that time. (I see a death regd in Lurgan Oct – Dec 1900, born 1826. Might be him).

                Two Dickson households in Lisnisky in 1901:





                Both are beside each other and likely to be related.

                A couple of probate abstracts (summaries):

                The Will (with one Codicil) of Margaret Dickson late of Lisniskey County Armagh Widow who died 27 November 1889 at same place was proved at Armagh by William Paul of Portadown Merchant and William Metcalf of Seagoe Farmer both in said County the Executors. Effects £266 5s.

                The above will is on-line on the PRONI wills site. It mentions her daughters (and her piano, which is lovely).

                Administration of the Estate of William Dickson late of Lisniskey County Armagh Farmer who died 27 August 1908 granted at Armagh to Annie Dickson the Widow. Effects £400 5s.

                Above probate file is not on line and you would need to look it up in PRONI. (No will, as he was intestate).

                The Dickson farm in Lisnisky was more or less across the road from the Porter cottage. Diagonally to the left, about 50 yards. (So Robert married the girl next door). Today it’s on the north side of the A27, near Craigavon hospital. Again looking at Google Earth, I can see that the agricultural land is still there, apparently lying fallow, but the farmhouse is gone. Swept away to make another roundabout.
                Last edited by Elwyn; 12-04-14, 19:52.
                Elwyn

                I am based in Co. Antrim and undertake research in Northern Ireland. Please feel free to contact me for help or advice via PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  What fantastic information Elwyn, you have helped my understanding such a lot, thank you seems barely to cover it loads of stuff for me to get working on. It's nice to know the boy married the girl next door. My future father in law will appreciate that.

                  I hope this smiley works; in case it doesn't it's meant to be a waving smiley button with a bouquet and a thank you :thanku: nope that didn't work but insert image did the trick! thanks-1.gif maybe the admins will add it to the list as I'm sure it will prove popular.
                  Last edited by GallowayLass; 12-04-14, 22:01.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Elwyn View Post
                    I see a death regd in Lurgan Oct – Dec 1900, born 1826. Might be him.
                    The 1900 death is unfortunately inconclusive. That Thomas Dickson died in Tarsan townland, which so far, hasn't turned up anywhere in my research before. He was a widower and it was a neighbour who was informant so no family clues to be gained from it.

                    I'm getting to be more familiar with search techniques on the GRONI BMD database but I still cannot find a death for Ann(ie) Porter nee Dixon/Dickson. I've tried in all the surrounding registration districts and right up to Belfast where her youngest son and his family ended up. I have tried searching for a variant of Porter but there are none in those places and even tried no forename at all in case there has been a really odd transcription but still no joy.
                    As she was informant on her daughter's death in 1885 in Water Street, Portadown I have looked at 1901 census for that street and found Ann's youngest son and his wife, (married 10 months before census day) before they moved permanently to Belfast. I suspect that Ann lived with them as she was present at the death and her residence is also given as Water Street.

                    Has it ever been known for a death registered locally in Ireland to be missing from the national compiled indexes?
                    Last edited by GallowayLass; 14-04-14, 17:55.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by GallowayLass View Post
                      Has it ever been known for a death registered locally in Ireland to be missing from the national compiled indexes?
                      I can’t say whether a death has ever been missed but they have certainly been mistranscribed. Indeed GRONI have a specific facility for reporting mistranscribed data on their site. And there are illegible entries too, so they go on with gaps for the illegible bits, which can include the name(s).

                      The other things to think about are whether she died outside Ireland, or whether she might have remarried. (Unlike Scottish certs, Irish death certs don’t contain a woman’s maiden or previous names, and so if her name changed you won’t find her under Porter).

                      If you had an exact idea of when and where she died, GRONI can do a manual search of the books for you (if you ask nicely), but I doubt they’ll do that for a 15 year period with no real idea of exactly where the death may have occurred.
                      Elwyn

                      I am based in Co. Antrim and undertake research in Northern Ireland. Please feel free to contact me for help or advice via PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I'm certain she didn't die in Scotland as I've been up to Edinburgh and looked at every Ann and variant Porter that died between 1855 and 1891. This was a long time ago hence the very wide search time as I didn't know till last fortnight that her husband had died in Ireland in 1876 and one of her daughters in 1885, Ann being informant for both. So I now know I'm looking for her death in a period of 7 years 1885-1891. regardless of where it took place.

                        The residence of her son Robert (an engineer's fitter also a power loom mechanic) on his marriage in 1900 was Victoria Terrace, Portadown although the marriage took place in Belfast as his wife was a Belfast lass. They must have lived in Portadown till about 1905/7 going by the births of their 4 children. no.1 was born in Belfast, quite normal to go home to Mum to have the first baby. nos. 2 and 3 were born in Portadown and no.4 was born in Belfast in 1907 and the family are in the city in 1911 census.
                        Last edited by GallowayLass; 15-04-14, 00:25.

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