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  • Surname question

    I have a marriage with the bride as a widow. Would her surname on this marriage certificate be her previous married name or her birth surname?
    Hope that makes sense!

  • #2
    I have certificates with both! Not much help really!
    Co-ordinator for PoW project Southern Region 08
    Researching:- Wieland, Habbes, Saettele, Bowinkelmann, Freckenhauser, Dilger in Germany
    Kincaid, Warner, Hitchman, Collie, Curtis, Pocock, Stanley, Nixey, McDonald in London, Berks, Bucks, Oxon and West Midlands
    Drake, Beals, Pritchard in Kent
    Devine in Ireland

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    • #3
      Why not post the details and see if someone can help find out her previous married name and maiden name (providing the person is not living)

      Edna

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      • #4
        Her father's name as given on the cert is a clue to her maiden name!

        OC

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        • #5
          she should marry under her widowed surname. but her father's name will be a clue as to her birth surname. sometimes if a woman used an alias or was divorced the index will show both surnames. i have an aunt coates who was also registered as storey. the marriage cert revealed she was coates, but divorced from storey. so legally using her maiden name after the divorce.

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          • #6
            Per Terianne's other post here the marriage is: Alexander Forbes (widower) and Jane Beadle (widow) in 1796, and the location is presently unknown. IMHO Jane's name on this marriage is more likely to be the surname of her first husband, and thus the marriage is Jane XXX to XXX Beadle, but I have a marriage where the widow married a second time using her maiden name not that of her first husband.

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            • #7
              Per Terianne's other post here the marriage is: Alexander Forbes (widower) and Jane Beadle (widow) in 1796, and the location is presently unknown. IMHO Jane's name on this marriage is more likely to be the surname of her first husband, and thus the marriage is Jane XXX to XXX Beadle, but I have a marriage where the widow married a second time using her maiden name not that of her first husband.

              (NB: poster did not give and was not able to give the father's name as this was before compulsory registration)

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              • #8
                Terri - will post here rather than on your other thread. Please treat this with some caution as Jane's second marriage location is not yet found (but please note that many Kent parishes are not on family search so Jane's second marriage MIGHT be there too) but there is this marriage:

                Name Henry Beadle
                Spouse's Name Jane Viner
                Event Date 31 Jan 1792
                Event Place Darenth, Kent, England
                Indexing Project (Batch) Number I02199-7
                System Origin England-EASy
                GS Film number 1473679
                Reference ID item 2 p 21

                Looking at this marriage on Cityark, this marriage was at St. Margaret of Antioch and the banns record states Henry was a bachelor and Jane a spinster, both "of this parish". The record originally written as Bedle but corrected with insertion of "a"

                It appears that there were no children to this marriage
                Last edited by Bertie; 09-04-14, 09:22.

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                • #9
                  From the other thread, I see that James Forbes was from Greenwich. Therefore, this would certainly be a possibility for Jane's first marriage:

                  Name: James Beadle
                  Spouse Name: Jane Spright
                  Record Type: Marriage
                  Event Date: 22 Jun 1786
                  Parish: Deptford St Nicholas
                  Borough: Greenwich
                  Register Type: Parish Register

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                  • #10
                    Terri - do give us details of which ships James FORBES served on in 1796 as we may be able to find out where he was throughout that year

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                    • #11
                      Richard - proves my point about familysearch not having all the records! Looks promising, but again Terri need to treat this with caution

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                      • #12
                        Sorry about the delay in responding - have been out all day.
                        Many thanks to you all for your replies

                        These are all the details I have from the National Archives

                        Alexander Forbes (widower) married Jane Beadle (widow) 6 July 1796 (extracted from the Parish Register of Lewisham Kent) in the presence of John Davis and Thomas Leaper.

                        I don't know Alexander's date of birth. He died 12 November 1807 in the Royal Hospital for Seamen, Greenwich.
                        The exact wording is -
                        These are to certify those whom it may concern, that Alexander Forbes was entered a Pensioner in the Royal Hospital for Seamen at Greenwich, the 3 day of June 1793 and died in the same the 27 day of August 1807. It appears by his Navy Office Certificate lodged in this office, that HMS Lizard was the last he served in, and that the whole of his servitude amounts to 20 years, 3 weeks and two days.
                        I then have another page headed Petition for a Boy
                        To his Royal Highness the Duke of Cumberland, and the other Commissioners of His Royal Naval Asylum
                        The humble petition of Jane Forbes
                        Residing East Lane Greenwich
                        in behalf of James Forbes
                        the child of Alexander Forbes late sailor
                        in his Majesty's ship Lizard
                        Sheweth that the said James Forbes
                        is the lawful child of Alexander and Jane Forbes
                        as will appear in the annexed certificates
                        That the said Alexander Forbes served on board HMS Prince Frederick, Levant, Lizard, Royal Vigilant, Edgar, and Lizard again, between 12 May 176? and 14 December 1792 - and died in Greenwich Hospital 27 August 1807

                        James the son aged 8 was admitted to the Royal Navy Asylum and discharged in 1813 aged 14!
                        .

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                        • #13
                          Sorry if I am being thick, but how could he marry in 1796 if he was living at Greenwich hospital in 1793? Was that allowed?

                          OC

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                          • #14
                            OC - You're right dates don't add up. Had another look at the marriage details, it could well be 1790 and not 1796.
                            The other dates that don't add up are his service years. One page says he served 20 years, 3 weeks and 2 days and the other says he served from May 176? (which could be 1760, the last digit looks like 'a') and December 1792 which to me adds up to 32 years service!

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                            • #15
                              I'm wondering if there are two Alexander Forbes - I have Alexander Forbes as one of my 3 x GGFs and I know from my research into him that there were dozens of men called Alexander Forbes!

                              OC

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                              • #16
                                Hi Terri - you do not state whether you have a copy of the marriage record in the documents you received or whether the details are entered: as witnesses are stated I assume you have a copy of the original marriage record. However, if you do not, you could contact:

                                Local History and Archives Centre
                                199 201 Lewisham Library, Lewisham High Street
                                SE13 6LG
                                Tel: 020 8314 8501
                                Email: local.studies@lewisham.gov.uk

                                I would take the marriage year as 1796 as this is what TNA have transcribed it as - take a look at the first 6 (in 6 Jul 1796): is it the same/similar to the last?

                                Your docs. state "Alexander Forbes was entered a Pensioner in the Royal Hospital for Seamen at Greenwich, the 3 day of June 1793 and died in the same the 27 day of August 1807" This does not necessarily mean he was there continuously: he might have been there initially, then out in time to marry and have a family, and then back in towards the end of his days.

                                In my experience, years of service are generally accurate: thus just over 20 years back from Dec 1792 takes us to about Nov 1772 when he joined the RN. Assuming he joined as a boy (quite common) at the age of 12 puts his birth at around 1760 as a rough calculation. If you want to PM me so we can arrange for you to send me scanned copies of the relevant parts of the docs which show the apparent differences in length of service (the one 20 years, the other 32 years) I will happily take a look for you if it would help.

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                                • #17
                                  Terri - forgot to mention the most important thing! As (as I hoped) you have a record of the ships he served on you can again at TNA look up the Ships' Musters series of records (ADM37) and Ships' Pay Books (ADM35) for each vessel - TNA has extensive archives for each ship: thus start with Prince Frederick and then follow that through to Lizard in Dec 1792.

                                  When you consult these records (usually a complete set for every quarter) you will find a wealth of information including, although the quality of recording varies from ship to ship, his age, birth location/where from, and his rank. This should give you important further clues as to where and when Alexander was born. (BTW if you do not have the exact dates of each ship he was on in terms of start/finish dates, I would start at Lizard in Dec 1792 and work backwards until you find the date he joined Prince Frederick)
                                  Last edited by Bertie; 10-04-14, 08:08.

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                                  • #18
                                    Bertie - have sent a message.

                                    Terri

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