Unconfigured Ad Widget

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Huguenot help, please

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Huguenot help, please

    Not sure if Richard the lovely Huguenot expert still visits this forum :o Here's hoping! If anyone else can help I'd be very grateful.


    I have a Jonathan Charpentier (Carpentier, Carpantier, Carpenter etc) marrying a Marie Gentil (Jantil) 2 Feb 1761, St Matthews, Bethnal Green. They go on to have many children, baptisms available on the Ancestry Non Conformist and Non Parochial Registers.

    I have a couple of CDs from the Huguenot Society and have found Marie's parents/siblings but can find little on Jonathan. His Tesmoinage was @ Theadneedle St in 1752 and in the 1760s an Elie Charpentier made her tesmoinage with her brother Jonathan as witness. But I can't find a baptism for either. There are a couple of Carpentier families baptising children in the right time frame but whilst I can accept that one of their baptisms is missing from a family I'm not sure about the coincidence of both!
    Not sure where else to look next. Any input welcome

    Thanks for looking
    Sue

  • #2
    "The lovely Huguenot expert" ;)..I am still here, flattering description Sue, though I'm not sure I'm quite the expert yet... but trying my best to get there! I will have a look and see if I can find anything for Jonathan. Does not ring a bell as someone I have looked into before and possibly if he joined the church around that date 1752, he might have been a new refugee to England, part of the later wave who came during the persecutions 1748-1756, mostly from Normandy and Poitou, but will have a look and see if I can dig anything up on him.

    Comment


    • #3
      Compared to me Richard you're an expert, believe me...:o I wasn't even aware that there was a later wave of persecutions.

      Thanks for taking the time to look.
      Sue

      Comment


      • #4
        Hello Sue, not found a great deal either I'm afraid. There are the two tesmoignages for Jonathan and his sister at Threadneedle Street, and the baptism of 12 children, including two sets of twins, to Jonathan and Maire Gentil at the same church between 1761-1776. Apart from Elie, Daniel Charpentier (June 1767) and Rachel Charpentier (Jan 1769) also stand as godparents, so possibly they are also relations to Jonathan.

        I don't know if you've looked at the French Hospital records already, but there is a Daniel Charpentier/Carpentier as an inmate from Aug 1765 until his death January 10th, 1767 (Buried by the Hospital at St Lukes, Finsbury, January 13th 1767). He was described as the son of François Charpentier of Poitou. This obviously cannot be the same Daniel who stood as a godfather to Jonathan's son Daniel in June 1767. This son was later enrolled by Jonathan into the Threadneedle Street Charity School as a pupil aged 10 (given on the record as 9), in October 1777, but that record tells us little on Jonathan's own background either.

        His daughter Lydie baptised at Threadneedle Street August 1771, made an application to the French Hospital in December 1837 aged 66 (age given as 68 on the petition) address 23 Winchester St. Waterloo Town, Bethnal Green, describing herself as a silk weaver with failing sight, the daughter of Jonathan Charpentier a native of Picardy. This would seem to confirm Jonathan himself was a refugee to England as suspected. I can't find him listed on Jean Paul Roelly's website of Picard protestants however, though that in itself is not conclusive as, excellent though it is, it's by no means a complete database.

        One more clue might come from the Tesmoignage ceremony itself. He joined with the following people:

        27 September 1752

        Elizabeth Bonnett (Test. Monsieur Patron)
        Damaris Douteau (Test. Monsieur Patron)
        Marianne Guidot (Test. Monsieur Patron)

        Claude and Margueritte Fradin, his wife. (Test. Monsieur de Botta )

        Francois Fradin. (Test. Monsieur Dubon)
        Jonathan Charpentier. (Test. Monsieur Dubon)

        Marie Madelaine Denis (Test. Her Mother)

        Paul Boucquet. (Test. Monsieur Duval)

        Jean and Margueritte Anne Williams, his wife


        Francios Fradin I do recognise. He was a native of Moncoutant, Poitou imprisoned in France for nearly three years with several other young men when Moncoutant was subject to the Dragonnades in 1748. After release he took refuge in England for the remainder of his life (Claude and Margeuritte Fradin who joined the same day were close relatives whose branch of the family had been settled in England as refugees since the later 1600's). It seems significant that Monsieur Dubon gave testimony for both Francois Fradin and Jonathan Charpentier, but not Francois' English born relations. This would suggest Dubon had a connection to both newcommers, and by extension that they were connected to each other. I wonder whether Jonathan's daughter is wrong in giving Picardy as her father's place of birth, and whether he was actually after all related to Daniel Charpentier of Poitou who died in the French Hospital 1767? It might help to know who Monsieur Dubon was. He doesn't appear to have been one of Threadneedle Street's ministers. A Monsiuer Dubon also gave testimony for Charles Grinoneau in 1720, and Daniel Pilon in 1756. The latter is probably the same man, but not sure about the first. To further muddy the waters the only time Dubon seems to appear in the Threadneedle Street baptism registers is as a misspelling for Duboc!
        Last edited by Richard; 03-04-14, 13:08.

        Comment


        • #5
          Wow, Richard that's a lot of information and may take some time to digest. I'm sure I'll have some follow up questions so be prepared. I don't have the French Hospital records, I may have to invest if they're available on CD, to help with some of the other Huguenot lines!

          One intial question - re the application of Lydie Charpentier to The French Hospital, did she mention a married name? I have her as possibly marrying a George Frederick Russell in 1800 @ St George, Hanover Sq. One of the witnesses was Daniel Carpenter. If I have the right person she was in Bethnal Green Workhouse in 1841 (possibly with her sister Esther, who married a Barnabas Sharp, my 4x gt grandparents)

          Thank you once again for all your efforts. It really is much appreciated.
          Sue

          Comment


          • #6
            Hello Sue, yes that is correct, she applied under her married name of Russell, but was not accepted into La Providence, (possibly a suitable place simply wasn't available) which is why she instead ended up in the workhouse.
            Last edited by Richard; 03-04-14, 14:53.

            Comment


            • #7
              Actually looking at it the reason she was not admitted given on the application is simply "not appeared for a long time"..suggesting they received no further contact from her after the initial application.

              Comment


              • #8
                That is excellent news Richard.

                Jonathan Charpentier and Marie were the only potential parents I could find for Esther Carpenter and for a long time it's been a "maybe" but gradually the pieces are falling into place and making it look more certain.
                Sue

                Comment


                • #9
                  Was Jonathan married twice? There's a marriage for a Jonathan Carpenter, Widower, to a Mary Prockter, Spinster, at St Botolph's Bishopsgate 7 Nov 1811, and she later appears in the Bethnal Green Poor Law records:

                  " Examination 10th October 1837 Mary Charpentier of 3 Hare Court, Hare Street, aged 68, widow of Jonathan Charpentier, deceased 20 years- states that her father Samuel Prockter rented a house , four rooms, a great many years in Hare Marsh. She resided with her father there until she was about 25 years old"


                  Also a record for an Elizabeth Ann Wensley of 36 North Conduit Street, aged 29, dated Wednesday 1st December 1847. This states that her aunt Mrs. Esther Sharpe is an inmate, and goes on to describe her as:

                  "Esther Sharp aged 73 an inmate of Bethnal Green workhouse, as to Elizabeth Ann Wensley, her sister Elizabeth Russell's grand-daughter on the mothers side.Knew Benjamin Wensley deceased 19 years, 35 years ago at Bethnal Green to Elizabeth Ann Russell, niece ...R.A.Wensley was born No 1 Dove Row, Goldsmiths Row,, and the whole house for seven years, left about 25 years ago, moved to he church Bethnal Green Road at £25 a year,...then 37 years opposite Well and Bucket at 12/6 a week."
                  Last edited by Richard; 03-04-14, 17:50.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    "Jonathan Carpenter, of Hare Street, buried 10 Oct 1819, Bethnal Green St Matthew, age 57 (Estimated birth year: abt 1762)"

                    That must be Mary Prockter's husband, son to first Jonathan?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Richard View Post
                      Was Jonathan married twice? There's a marriage for a Jonathan Carpenter, Widower, to a Mary Prockter, Spinster, at St Botolph's Bishopsgate 7 Nov 1811, and she later appears in the Bethnal Green Poor Law records:

                      " Examination 10th October 1837 Mary Charpentier of 3 Hare Court, Hare Street, aged 68, widow of Jonathan Charpentier, deceased 20 years- states that her father Samuel Prockter rented a house , four rooms, a great many years in Hare Marsh. She resided with her father there until she was about 25 years old"



                      Also a record for an Elizabeth Ann Wensley of 36 North Conduit Street, aged 29, dated Wednesday 1st December 1847. This states that her aunt Mrs. Esther Sharpe is an inmate, and goes on to describe her as:

                      "Esther Sharp aged 73 an inmate of Bethnal Green workhouse, as to Elizabeth Ann Wensley, her sister Elizabeth Russell's grand-daughter on the mothers side.Knew Benjamin Wensley deceased 19 years, 35 years ago at Bethnal Green to Elizabeth Ann Russell, niece ...R.A.Wensley was born No 1 Dove Row, Goldsmiths Row,, and the whole house for seven years, left about 25 years ago, moved to he church Bethnal Green Road at £25 a year,...then 37 years opposite Well and Bucket at 12/6 a week."

                      Not sure whether Jonathan married twice. There is another marriage to a Margaret Lemon, St Leonards Shoreditch in 1782, Jonathan is a widower. Jonathan and Marie didn't name any of their children Jonathan as far as I can see but this second couple baptised a son Jonathan in 1794.

                      Quite where the Jonathan b1767 fits in I don't know!

                      The Settlement Exam for Elizabeth Wensley only went online in the last couple of weeks and is the reason I'm looking at the family again. It looks as though Esther's sister, Elizabeth Charpentier married a Henry Russell, possibly a brother of Lydia's husband?

                      There is yet another Jonathan Webster baptised in St Marylebone to a Daniel and Elizabeth. Jonathan and Marie's son perhaps?

                      I've lots to work on now but nothing that seems likely to take the family back any further.
                      Sue

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Sue from Southend View Post


                        There is yet another Jonathan Webster baptised in St Marylebone to a Daniel and Elizabeth. Jonathan and Marie's son perhaps?
                        Just to add that Daniel Carpenter married an Elizabeth Green - my only doubts about the baptism is the location ie Marylebone.
                        Sue

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hi Richard, hope you're still around!

                          I said I'd have questions and here's one :o

                          In your first reply you had collected together all the people that made/swore (I don't know the correct terminology) their tesmoinages on the same day as Jonathan Charpentier. How did you do that? I have a CD with an alphabetical list of names ie "Jonathan Charpentier T, M. Dubon ...... 27 Sept 1752" but can see no way of finding the others on the same day short of trawling through the whole index and making a note of each one. I've looked at the other CDs available and can see no other that might have more info so I'm intrigued as to how you did it.
                          Sue

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hello Sue, still around! The original tesmoignage registers were arranged by date rather than alphabetical. The transcriptions were presumably arranged alphabetically to aid researchers looking for individual family names, but I tend to still do a search in the PDF on the date itself for any individual entry, as it is useful to see the original context and it is often significant who else joined the church with them.

                            The tesmoignages themselves tended to take place at set times in the church calender, usually on significant dates, Easter, Xmas, etc when the church was full, and would be a mix of new arrivals, children of existing members who had reached their age of majority and completed a period of religious training and testing, and lapsed members who had perhaps joined another church and were returning to the fold. It basically consisted of them giving a solemn promise in front of the congregation that they were genuine Christians, following the Calvinist creed, and an existing member vouching they knew this to be true and accurate. Technically men such as Francis Fradin were exempt from this, as someone who had been imprisoned for the faith in France he would have been considered a 'Confessor' and automatically accepted into the fold.

                            It's interesting then that Dubon still vouched for him. I had a look at the details of Fradin's case, and Charpentier was not one of the two other men arrested and imprisoned with him. That does not rule out the possibility they fled together. It crossed my mind Dubon may have had some special function in housing and caring for new arrivals in London, but the fact he only appears on one other tesmoignage that decade seems to point against it, between 1748-56 there was a fairly large influx of new refugees to London, at least a couple of thousand.
                            Last edited by Richard; 06-04-14, 08:58.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Thanks once again Richard. I'm relieved to read that you hadn't trawled through the whole index on my behalf!

                              So, the PDF that you work from, is that something you've purchased somewhere or am I still being dumb as to the use of the CD I have ;D I ask because I have several other families I'd like to look up but really don't want to bother you with them.
                              Sue

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                The PDF I use is the standard one that's supplied on the CD Rom by the Huguenot Society. Should be the same as the one you have. I just go to 'Edit' and then 'Find' and then enter in the date I'm looking for and a search should find all the entries of interest.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  I told you I was dumb!

                                  Thank you so much - they say you learn something new every day and I certainly have today. I honestly didn't know that you could do that with a PDF. I'm wondering now what else I've missed out on.....

                                  Off to explore all my FH cds - I could be some time :D
                                  Sue

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    This has been a wonderful thead, thanks so much for it, I've learnt loads! I've never heard of tesmoignage registers, and google didn't help much either, so thanks for the explanation.

                                    I can't be sure that my lot are Huguenots, just seems likely, but I've never found proof, just wishful thinking!
                                    Sue x


                                    Looking for Hanmores in Kent, Blakers in Essex and Kent, Pickards in East London and Raisons in Somerset.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Is it Pickards you're looking for Sue at the seaside? I'm descended from East London Picards, Isaac Picard and Elizabeth de la Rue who lived in Phoenix Street, Spitalfields in the the early 18th century.
                                      Last edited by Richard; 07-04-14, 11:14.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by Richard View Post
                                        Is it Pickards you're looking for Sue at the seaside? I'm descended from East London Picards, Isaac Picard and Elizabeth de la Rue who lived in Phoenix Street, Spitalfields in the the early 18th century.
                                        Yes, it's the Pickards...... I got very excited years ago when I found in 1841 census they were written as Piccard, but they are Pickards long before that! an enumerator getting it wrong I think.

                                        My earliest Pickards are James, born about 1739, he married Rebecca Brown in 1769 at St Giles Cripplegate, buried at Christchurch Spitalfields. From (what I think are) his apprenticeship papers as a weaver his father was Thomas, a tailor from Blackfriars.

                                        James and Rebecca were silk and orris weavers and left looms in their wills, most of the family events from them onwards are at Christchurch, Spitalfields.... the families lives in Fournier St, Wilkes St, and Fashion St.

                                        So you can see, no evidence of Huguenot ancestry, just wishful thinking!

                                        One of the girls (Mary Elizabeth) married James Lanthois (a nice French name!), still clutching at straws
                                        Sue x


                                        Looking for Hanmores in Kent, Blakers in Essex and Kent, Pickards in East London and Raisons in Somerset.

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X