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  • James Richmond

    My great great grandfather, James Richmond was born in Cockerham, Lancashire in about 1813. I went on to Family Search and found 'him' with parent's William Richmond and Sarah Bond. Lovely! I then found a marriage for him to an Eliza Harrison in Preston, Lancashire in 1st qtr 1839. Next time I found them, was in the Scottish census for 1841, James, Eliza, baby son John and servant Mary McEachen. I was so happy with this scenario, I knew that James was my great great grandfather, and that he married my great great grandmother Mary McEachen in 1846 in Invernesshire, so everything looked good. In the household in 1851 census were son John (born 1841) and daughter Thomasin, (born 1843), as well as George, Thomas and Jane (my great grandmother) further searching discovered that Thomasin was the daughter of Eliza and James. I couldn't find a death date for Eliza, so I thought that maybe she died giving birth to Thomasin.

    I'm sorry that this is such a long tale, but my problem is that on delving further into the family in Lancashire, I have found several trees that see James married to a different Eliza, (Eliza Til) staying in the county and having quite a different family.

    I have found the name Thomasin a bit further back, a lady who I think was married to a Jacob Richmond, but cannot find a son James for this couple. I'm not sure about dates for Thomasin & Jacob, so maybe I am way out thinking to link them, but Thomasin is not a common name, and I just sort of latched on to it.

    If anyone could help me in my dilemma, I would be forever grateful. As I say, I was really happy about the William/Sarah link, but if I am wrong, where does that leave me?

    Living in hope
    Ann

  • #2
    i don't see anything in your post about the 1861 census? did james stay in scotland? did he died in scotland? if so, do you have the death? that should give you his parents names. 1855 was the civil registration began in scotland. (in england it was sep 1837, and ireland 1864).

    so any deaths before 1855 were not recorded, and depending on where in scotland they lived, you may find a burial, but they usually weren't recorded.

    Comment


    • #3
      Thank you Kyle! Yes! James stayed in Scotland. He & Mary had ten children altogether, the youngest in 1865. The death certificate sounds like a d--- fine idea. I'll give it a go!
      Thank you

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      • #4
        I presume that this is the baptism you found in Cockerham:

        Baptism: 25 Dec 1815 St Michael, Cockerham, Lancashire, England
        James Richmond - Son of William Richmond & Sarah
        Born: 13 Dec 1813
        Abode: Forton
        Occupation: Farmer
        Baptised by: J. Widditt, Vicar
        Register: Baptisms 1813 - 1826, Page 34, Entry 272
        Source: LDS Film 1278859

        The question is, is this the same James who married Eliza Harrison in 1839 or not? There is another marriage for a James Richmond, in Lancaster reg district, Dec 1854. There is also an Elizabeth Till marrying in the same district & quarter, but with a slightly different page number (789 vs 787). There is a female name missing off page 787, and one too many females on page 789:

        Marriages Dec 1854
        Richmond James Lancaster 8e 787
        Till Elizabeth Lancaster 8e 789

        So, this must be an error in the index, as this James did in fact marry Elizabeth Till, according to Lancashire OPC (http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/)

        Marriage: 8 Oct 1854 St Mary, Lancaster, Lancashire, England
        James Richmond - 40, Labourer, Bachelor, Heysham
        Elizabeth Till - 40, Widow, Penny Street
        Groom's Father: William Richmond, Stone Mason
        Bride's Father: Thomas Cragg, Farmer
        Witness: Thomas Rowe; Elizabeth Richmond
        Married by Licence by: Jos. Turner, Vicar
        Register: Marriages 1853 - 1856, Page 133, Entry 266
        Source: LDS Film 1526201

        So, this Elizabeth (not Eliza) was a widow, and her maiden name (implied by her father's name) is Cragg, not Till. But the question is, is this the same James that was baptised in Cockerham, (abode Forton) in 1815 or not? This one's father was called William, which ties in with the Cockerham baptism, but was a stonemason rather than a farmer. Also he was living in Heysham, which is not that close to Cockerham, though I guess he could have moved. There is a James Richmond born c1814 Cockerham on the 1851 census, he is a single lodger living Bleasdale. He seems the most likely candidate to be Elizabeth Till's spouse, so overall this does tend to suggest that the 1813 Cockerham James did in fact marry Elizabeth Till.

        Do you know for certain that your James was from Cockerham? Why would he have married in Preston, which is some way south? (possible if Eliza was from there I guess). I think that the best way forward would be to buy the 1839 marriage cert, as this will hopefully confirm his father's name and occupation. It does sound as though this is the right marriage for your James, as it ties in with the 1841 census and thereon. However, it seems that there were possibly two James Richmonds born in the same area and around the same time, so you will need his father's info before you can decide which is the right birth.

        Comment


        • #5
          Ann -

          Save yourself the £9.25, as there is a tree on Ancestry which has the details of that marriage:

          James Richmond Family Tree Owner: PamelaRichmond45
          "16-Feb-1839, Marriage to Elesabeth Harrison - Catholic Chapel, Fernyhalgh. James is a Farmer of Haighton Hall."

          This tree has his parents as James Richmond and Thomasin Hool. Presumably this was from the marriage register, as the Catholic registers often name both parents. Also, they are usually written in Latin, so James would have been entered as "Jacobus" (so maybe this is your Jacob & Thomasin?).

          Their marriage is also on Ancestry:

          England & Wales Marriages, 1538-1940
          Name: James Richmond
          Gender: Male
          Spouse's Name: Thomasan Hool
          Marriage Date: 12 Jul 1802
          Marriage Place: Broughton (near Preston), Lancashire, England


          Therefore, I think you need to be looking around Preston for the birth/baptism of your James!

          Cheers,
          Richard

          Comment


          • #6
            Probate for James Richmond senior:

            Name: James Richmond
            Probate Date: 7 Jan 1861
            Death Date: 16 Jan 1856
            Death Place: Lancashire, England
            Registry: Lancashire, England

            He died at Haighton, Lancaster and the executor was a son, Thomas - of "Flowerburn near Fortrose in the county of Ross". Not that far from Inverness! And here's Thomas's baptism (also RC, same place as James/Elizabeth's marriage):

            Name: Thomas Richmond
            Gender: Male
            Birth Date: 18 Jan 1817
            Baptism Date: 19 Jan 1817
            Baptism Place: St Mary-Rc,Fernyhalgh,Lancashire,England
            Father: Jacobi Richmond
            Mother: Thomasinae Hull
            FHL Film Number: 599714

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            • #7
              james' birthplace should be from the 1851 and 1861 scottish census. the death cert should name his parents, but no guarantee. scottish baptisms record mother's maiden name, so that should help with proving eliza's.

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              • #8
                The 1861 Scottish census just has "Lancashire" as James' place of birth. The others (1841, 51, 71, 81) just state "England", which is even less useful. Agree that the death cert should have his parents names (assuming they were known by the informant), but it won't have his place of birth as that info was only included on Scottish death certs in 1855, and was not included from 1856 onwards.

                Richard
                Last edited by Richard in Perth; 19-03-14, 09:25.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Thank you both so much! This is a big help to me. The trouble is, I was so certain I was right with the William & Sarah parents that I was a bit blind to everything else. Fernyhaugh was mentioned somewhere along the line, but when I looked at it I couldn't find anything that helped. I daresay I didn't look too hard. I contacted Scotland's People yesterday, and searched for James' death certificate. I found a likely one, but I am now having difficulty viewing it. I have contacted them asking for help and am hoping for a good outcome.
                  Thanks again! The Aussies came up trumps!
                  Best regards
                  Ann

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hi Ann

                    Glad that was of help. If you look on FamilySearch, you will find six baptisms for children of James (Jacobo) and Thomasin Richmond - all at St Mary's RC, Fernyhalgh:

                    Robertus, b. 23-Feb-1803
                    Georgius, b. 7-Sep-1804
                    Joannes, b. 9-Oct-1806
                    Anna, b. 27-Sep-1808
                    Margtam or Margta, b. 24-Jul-1811
                    Thomas, b. 18-Jan-1817 (presumably this is the Thomas mentioned in James senior's probate record)

                    No James, unfortunately - but there seems to be a gap in the above baptisms between 1811 and 1817, which is when you would expect to find your James - so possibly the register is incomplete, or maybe the missing years haven't been transcribed for some reason. Would certainly be worthwhile getting the microfilm for this church from the LDS and checking.

                    Cheers,
                    Richard

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Back again! I have solved my viewing problem at Scotland's People, but as you say, one is dependent on the informer being truly informed. James parent's are down as John Richmond (farmer) and Elizabeth (msn) Robb. His first wife's name is down as Elizabeth Lamond, not Harrison. However, I do know that both children he had with his first wife have the mother's name on registration as Harrison. James' daughter Ann seems to be the informer. I also pulled up Mary McEachen's death. They both died in Glasgow and she had the same doctor in attendance, so I do think I have the right people, just a not very well informed informer. If only I could get a hold of Ann Richmond and give her a shake, we might get somewhere! I really don't know where to go from here.
                      Perplexed, Queensland

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                      • #12
                        Oh, now that is strange... are you absolutely sure you have the right death cert? You didn't say what year this James died, but have you looked for a will? There are several James Richmonds listed under Wills & Testaments on ScotlandsPeople. Why would your James have died in Glasgow, when he was a gamekeeper in Inverness according to the 1881 census? What was his age according to the death cert?

                        Having said that, I can't see any marriage for a James Richmond to an Elizabeth Lamond, either in Scotland or in England. Nor can I find a marriage for a John Richmond to an Elizabeth Robb - so maybe it was a case of the informant (Ann) being very uninformed! I guess if she grew up in Scotland she may never have known her grandparents in Lancashire, and maybe she simply made a mistake with the surname of her dad's first wife (who she also would not have known of course). Another possibility - you say the cert is really hard to read, so could "Lamond" actually be a very poor transcription of "Harrison"? Is it possible to post the image here? (you may need to crop it to just the relevant part to avoid copyright infringement!).

                        In your situation, I would definitely order the marriage cert for James Richmond and Elizabeth Harrison, as this will give you another piece of evidence of his father's name. I would also get the film for St Mary's Fernyhalgh from the LDS, in order to see the marriage entry in the original register and also be able to check for a baptism for James c1814.

                        Cheers,
                        Richard
                        Last edited by Richard in Perth; 21-03-14, 03:36.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hi Richard,
                          I have printed off both James and Mary’s death certificate. James’ name appears on Mary’s certificate, and Mary’s name appears on James’ certificate. I am convinced that they are the right ones.
                          Mary died on 10th March 1885. The information on her parent’s is correct; Donald McEachen (Tailor) and Flora McInnes, notification by her husband James Richmond.
                          James’ date of death was 16th January 1886. The home address for both was 54, McIntosh St. Glasgow. I think their home in Inverness-shire was a tied house, and they were required to leave when the job finished (or he got too old to do it, he was 72 when he died). He was a nightwatchman when Mary died (no pension scheme in those days,) but on his own certificate it says his occupation was Gamekeeper. Maybe some of the family had removed to Glasgow, and they moved to be close.
                          I cannot see that Harrison could possibly be read as Lamond, (it definitely says Lamond) but then I doubt very much if any of my children know the name of their Father’s first wife!
                          I searched and couldn’t find a John Richmond married to an Elizabeth Robb, but of course that means nothing.
                          I think you may be right about James and Eliza’s marriage certificate. It is about the only thing that makes sense now.
                          Why could they not have married in Scotland? I already have credits for Scotland’s people!
                          Still plodding on
                          Ann

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            in my experience with death certs, scottish or australian, where the mother's name is down, the christian name is always correct. the surname can be wrong, and the only time the mother's name was wrong was when a second wife had raised the kids, and presumably their mother died without them having memory of her.

                            hopefully james' marriage to elizabeth harrison is the correct one, and gives you a father's name. were any of the kids born in england? you could compare the info from them and the scottish christenings to make sure you have the right couple.
                            Last edited by kylejustin; 21-03-14, 07:52.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I have sent off an E-Mail to Fernyhalgh, asking about the marriage of Jemes and Elizabth, so hoping for a reply to that in the not too distant future. The children were all born in Scotland, and that is how I know that Elizabeth Harrison is the mother of both John and Thomasin. I still haven't found a death for her, but there is no mention of bigamy, so I suppose she must have died.
                              Keep taking deep breaths, and try to stay calm (advice from to me)
                              Ann

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                              • #16
                                Still waiting for a reply from Fernyhalgh...

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                                • #17
                                  hopefully you can match james' occupation from marriage with the christenings? did they give anything else asides from child's name and parent's names?

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                                  • #18
                                    Hi Kyle,
                                    I checked on the baptism of Thomasin, and discovered that she and John and the first five of James' children with his second wife, (my great, great grandmother) were all baptised at the same time. All the details are there, including dates of birth and addresses. Mother of Thomasin and John, Elesabeth Harrison, James' occupation Gamekeeper.
                                    Still no word from Fernyhalgh. How long do I wait before trying something different, do you think?

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Hi Ann

                                      It appears that the Fernyhalgh registers have been deposited with the Lancashire Archives (http://new.lancashire.gov.uk/librari...ers-guide.aspx) - according to their online catalogue this includes baptisms from 1771-1883 and marriages 1838-1856. Therefore you should probably contact the archives rather than the church as the latter probably do not hold the info in any case. The alternative would be of course to purchase the marriage certificate from the GRO.

                                      Cheers,
                                      Richard

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        archives charge aroun 3-4 pound for entries in a register, and usually you have to write a check or mail order, which is expensive, so it's probably easier to get it from the local register office or the GRO.

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