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lennon2011
23-02-14, 13:55
On my tree I have John and Susannah's children:

Sarah, Thomas, Robert & William. All were born in Stainton which is halfway between Stockton & Darlington.

I have nothing further than an 1851 Census for Sarah.

I have Robert's entire life in Stockton, including an 1871 Census in Paddington that lists him as a Police Constable.

I have William's children, wife, death and so forth.

I have Thomas wife and children but no marriage or 1871 Census.
I had the name Mary A born in Scotland as the wife from a later Census.
I have children:
Alice Elizabeth- born in 1867, Stockton.
Emily Ann- born in 1870, London,
Susannah Fairburn, born in 1876, Middlesbrough.

I've just found a Darlington marriage to an Emma Parks and an 1871 Census. I think I'll see if you can spot anything interesting.

Thomas 1871 Census

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7619/LNDRG10_13_16-0511/3975256?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1871%26indiv%3dtry%26h%3d3 975259&ssrc=gr_t45725931_p6452406523_ktidz0q3d45725931z0q 26pidz0q3d6452406523z0q26hidz0q3d51934895808z0q26d bidz0q3d7619z0q26rpidz0q3d3975256z0q26hfz0q3dRecor dz0q26lnz0q3dphillipsz0q26pnz0q3d1z0q26hsz0q3drece ntz0q26ssrcz0q3dgrz0q26pgz0q3d32880z0q26pgplz0q3dt idz0q257cpidz0q257chidz0q257cdbidz0q257crpidz0q257 chfz0q257clnz0q257cpnz0q257chsz0q257cssrcz0q26pgps z0q3d6452406523_h51934895808&backlabel=ReturnRecord

Robert's 1871 Census

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7619/LNDRG10_13_16-0470/3974403?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1871%26h%3d3974403%26ti%3d 5538%26indiv%3dtry%26gss%3dpt%26ssrc%3dpt_t4572593 1_p6452169452_kpidz0q3d6452169452z0q26pgz0q3d32768 z0q26pgplz0q3dpid&ssrc=pt_t45725931_p6452169452_kpidz0q3d6452169452z 0q26pgz0q3d32768z0q26pgplz0q3dpid&backlabel=ReturnRecord

P.S. Is it really the right person?

Darksecretz
23-02-14, 16:55
Thomas & Robert are both policemen in London and living in Paddington? [1871] ?

did Emma die and then Thomas marry again to Mary A?

lennon2011
23-02-14, 17:10
I've not found a death for Emma or a marriage for Mary, it's just what was written in the Census records that I have.

The births of the children match up, in an 1891 Census there's a Clara living in Middlesbrough with what I assume to be her brother and Grandfather, I've added it here:

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1891&h=1232520&ti=5538&indiv=try&gss=pt&ssrc=pt_t45725931_p24083651551_kpidz0q3d2408365155 1z0q26pgz0q3d32768z0q26pgplz0q3dpid

Darksecretz
23-02-14, 17:31
is there a marriage anywhere for Thomas to a Mary A?

I would start looking around the time of the eldest childs birth for a marriage, though that parks one looks to be a good bet!.. if that is right then the last child b 1870, and emma is on the 1871 with thomas, but by 1881 he is with mary a.. and they have a child together...

I would carefully look at all other avenues before saying for definite that it is your thomas... though maybe the marriage cert to Emma would help.. if you could spot that in the parish register/and/or get a copy then you could say one way or the other.

lennon2011
23-02-14, 18:12
Pro's
The Emma marriage
Children matching other Census
Birth location of Thomas
Age of Thomas matches
A birth location for Emma and a record found
A birth location for Mary
A birth in Stockton for Clara

Con's
No Emma death
No Mary Marriage
No Mary death
No 1881 Census for Clara


Searching the London births & baptisms has:
Emily Ann registered for Emma & Thomas

I think it's time to sort out a lot of records here.

Darksecretz
23-02-14, 20:27
going back to the marriage Sarah enter the GRO ref's in the site here: http://www.marriage-locator.co.uk/

it should then tell you where the event took place.

i'll have a look just let me get me coffee :)

Darksecretz
23-02-14, 20:35
have you seen this Sarah? http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/8117050/person/24031802382

Darksecretz
23-02-14, 20:37
1881:?? http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?rank=1&new=1&MSAV=1&msT=1&gss=angs-g&gsfn=cla**+&gsln=phil**&msbdy=1867&msbpn__ftp=Durahm%2c+England&msbpn=5263&msbpn_PInfo=7-%7c0%7c0%7c3257%7c3251%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c5263%7c0%7c0% 7c&cpxt=1&uidh=lg3&msbdp=2&cp=11&pcat=ROOT_CATEGORY&h=3889743&db=uki1881&indiv=1&ml_rpos=3
Source Citation: Class: RG11; Piece: 4898; Folio: 4; Page: 2; GSU roll: 1342178.

Darksecretz
23-02-14, 20:40
ooh a bapt for Clara d/o Thomas and Emma

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?rank=1&new=1&MSAV=1&msT=1&gss=angs-g&gsfn=cla**+&gsln=phil**&msbdy=1867&msbpn__ftp=Durahm%2c+England&msbpn=5263&msbpn_PInfo=7-%7c0%7c0%7c3257%7c3251%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c5263%7c0%7c0% 7c&cpxt=1&uidh=lg3&msbdp=2&cp=11&pcat=ROOT_CATEGORY&h=82454739&db=FS1EnglandBirthsandChristenings&indiv=1&ml_rpos=46

lennon2011
23-02-14, 20:52
You had more luck than me

I spotted on the Emily Ann that they were living at 45 Woodchurch, Robert and his family were in 47 Woodchurch

:clap:

Darksecretz
23-02-14, 20:53
and....................ta-da

Name: Emma Phillips
Estimated birth year: abt 1840
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1871
Age at Death: 31
Registration district: Kensington
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1a
Page: 20

just need a marriage now....

lennon2011
23-02-14, 21:04
GRO Index: 1865 quarter 1, volume 10a, page 41:
Sorry, we cannot locate the church for this marriage. The entry is located between entries for Darlington Holy Trinity (RD: Darlington) and Middlesbrough (RD: Stockton).

Regarding the tree, I cannot see it due to being a guest but if it's the one I think it is then I should be able to access it on Mundia when it eventually starts working again. :)

Darksecretz
23-02-14, 21:14
and....................ta-da

Name: Emma Phillips
Estimated birth year: abt 1840
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1871
Age at Death: 31
Registration district: Kensington
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1a
Page: 20

just need a marriage now....


hmmmmn this looks promising:

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?rank=1&new=1&MSAV=1&msT=1&gss=angs-c&gsfn=thomas&gsln=phil**&msbdy=1842&msbpn__ftp=Durham%2c+England&msbpn=5263&msbpn_PInfo=7-%7c0%7c0%7c3257%7c3251%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c5263%7c0%7c0% 7c&msgdy=1871&msgpn__ftp=South+Shields%2c+Durham%2c+England&msgpn=83480&msgpn_PInfo=8-%7c0%7c0%7c3257%7c3251%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c5263%7c83480% 7c0%7c&cpxt=1&catBucket=rstp&uidh=lg3&msbdp=2&cp=11&pcat=BMD_MARRIAGE&h=22554023&recoff=3+4&db=FreeBMDMarriage&indiv=1&ml_rpos=8

Name: Thomas Phillips
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1871
Registration district: South Shields
Inferred County: Durham
Volume Number: 10a
Page Number: 864

IF Mary A Simpson/Simson is the right spouse then her parents according to that Agar tree posted upthread is a real possibility as Thomas's mothers name was Susannah FAIRBORNE and they name their daughter Susannah Fairborne PHILLIPS...

Darksecretz
23-02-14, 21:15
Regarding the tree, I cannot see it due to being a guest but if it's the one I think it is then I should be able to access it on Mundia when it eventually starts working again. :)

oh, do you not have an ancestry sub Sarah?

lennon2011
23-02-14, 21:22
I'm afraid not Julie, the money situation changed so it's more of an as & when situation when it comes to Ancestry. Mundia is usually a good source to double check that I have the correct details before I search the FreeBDM, Stockton Roots, FamilySearch and so forth.

Agar is the Great Granddaughter of Ellen Elizabeth, the sister of my Great Granddad.

The Phillips have a tradition of giving their sons/daughter's the maiden names of their Mums/Grandmother's.
Hence Susannah Fairburn Phillips, Henry Egglestone Phillips....

Oh and I have Mary down as being Scottish if it helps?

Janet in Yorkshire
23-02-14, 22:05
Well done, Julie.

Susannah was registered as Susannah FAIRBONE Philips Q2 1876 Middlesbrough Reg Dist.

Jay

Darksecretz
23-02-14, 22:08
I'm afraid not Julie, the money situation changed so it's more of an as & when situation when it comes to Ancestry. Mundia is usually a good source to double check that I have the correct details before I search the FreeBDM, Stockton Roots, FamilySearch and so forth.

Agar is the Great Granddaughter of Ellen Elizabeth, the sister of my Great Granddad.

The Phillips have a tradition of giving their sons/daughter's the maiden names of their Mums/Grandmother's.
Hence Susannah Fairburn Phillips, Henry Egglestone Phillips....

Oh and I have Mary down as being Scottish if it helps?

I did find a Mary A Simpson on the census with her parents, states she was born in Berwick [borders]

if there is any info that you would like from the bits I have posted then i'll happily oblige :) x

Darksecretz
23-02-14, 22:10
1881:?? http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?rank=1&new=1&MSAV=1&msT=1&gss=angs-g&gsfn=cla**+&gsln=phil**&msbdy=1867&msbpn__ftp=Durahm%2c+England&msbpn=5263&msbpn_PInfo=7-%7c0%7c0%7c3257%7c3251%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c5263%7c0%7c0% 7c&cpxt=1&uidh=lg3&msbdp=2&cp=11&pcat=ROOT_CATEGORY&h=3889743&db=uki1881&indiv=1&ml_rpos=3
Source Citation: Class: RG11; Piece: 4898; Folio: 4; Page: 2; GSU roll: 1342178.

I should have said this is for Clara aged 15 and a servant...

Darksecretz
23-02-14, 23:00
gonna have to go to bed Sarah, have to be up for school run in morning... nite


Thanks Jay... having a better evening re searching tonight.. makes a nice change, but other folks' names are usually much easier than my own :smilee:

lennon2011
24-02-14, 19:59
I forgot to mention that I found an actual birth for John Thomas, the same time that Emma died. Childbirth maybe?

Thanks ever so much for the help Julie, I have 1849 in Paxton, Berwickshire, Scotland attached to Mary so it's looking more likely that the marriage you've found is correct :)

Darksecretz
24-02-14, 20:06
I forgot to mention that I found an actual birth for John Thomas, the same time that Emma died. Childbirth maybe?

Thanks ever so much for the help Julie, I have 1849 in Paxton, Berwickshire, Scotland attached to Mary so it's looking more likely that the marriage you've found is correct :)

oh I didn't know that there was another child.. I have actually found Mary with her parents in 1861 too if you would like the link/info

but, it might be an idea to check that other marriage on that marriage locator it might be a church when they married. [if so, then you might be able to get a copy from the pr's]... oooh a thought, might they be on Familysearch? and then you could order the marriage/s from them for free :smilee:

lennon2011
24-02-14, 20:31
In the 1891 Census that Clara is in with her Granddad there's a John Thomas living with them listed as Grandson, I found a birth in the same place Emma died.

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=FreeBMDBirth&h=27824325&ti=5538&indiv=try&gss=pt&ssrc=pt_t45725931_p24083680391_kpidz0q3d2408368039 1z0q26pgz0q3d32768z0q26pgplz0q3dpid

So that makes Thomas having 5 children:

Alice Elizabeth born in 1867 to Emma
Clara born in 1867 to Emma
Emily Ann in 1870 to Emma
John Thomas in 1871 to Emma
Susannah Fairburn in 1876 to Mary.

Darksecretz
24-02-14, 20:37
In the 1891 Census that Clara is in with her Granddad there's a John Thomas living with them listed as Grandson, I found a birth in the same place Emma died.

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=FreeBMDBirth&h=27824325&ti=5538&indiv=try&gss=pt&ssrc=pt_t45725931_p24083680391_kpidz0q3d2408368039 1z0q26pgz0q3d32768z0q26pgplz0q3dpid

So that makes Thomas having 5 children:

Alice Elizabeth born in 1867 to Emma
Clara born in 1867 to Emma
Emily Ann in 1870 to Emma
John Thomas in 1871 to Emma
Susannah Fairburn in 1876 to Mary.


ooh well done!.. I had seen the 1891 but I didn't connect it!...

might there be a baptism for him or a burial for Emma??

Darksecretz
24-02-14, 20:41
I see that John Thomas is with his paternal grandparents in 1881 [John/Susannah]

Darksecretz
24-02-14, 20:51
right, have done a little more digging:

Name: Emily Ann Phillips
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 14 Oct 1869
Father's Name: Thomas Phillips
Mother's name: Emma Phillips
Parish or Poor Law Union: Paddington St Mary Magdalene
Borough: Westminster
Register Type: Parish Registers

address 45 woodchester/occupation Constable.

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&db=LMAbirths&rank=1&new=1&MSAV=1&msT=1&gss=angs-d&gsfn=john+thomas&gsln=phil**&msbdy=1871&msbpn__ftp=Middlesex%2c+England&msbpn=5275&msbpn_PInfo=7-%7c0%7c0%7c3257%7c3251%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c5275%7c0%7c0% 7c&msfng0=thomas&dbOnly=_F0005A5E%7c_F0005A5E_x%2c_F0005A49%7c_F000 5A49_x%2c_F00058A6%7c_F00058A6_x&uidh=lg3&msbdp=2&pcat=BMD_BIRTH&fh=39&h=3572386&recoff=11+36+47+48&ml_rpos=40

I am just going to check something I have found and I'll then come back to you.

Darksecretz
24-02-14, 20:59
nup I can't spot any other bapts.. I thought that there might be another, but it was a different Thomas

lennon2011
24-02-14, 21:13
I don't have an actual Baptism for John T, I just have the free bit. Maybe he wasn't Baptised due to the circumstances?

There is another thread where I mention these..

I can't believe it's another set of twins for the Phillips.

http://www.familytreeforum.com/showthread.php/101800-Trotter-or-Johnstone?highlight=clara+phillips

Darksecretz
24-02-14, 21:33
ahh rightio..

I couldn't spot a bapt for JT or a burial for Emma, BUT the london burials are not covered very well, so they could be adding more later. [but at least now you know what happened to Emma and have marriage ref's for both marriages] :)

lennon2011
24-02-14, 21:42
Hallelujah

Now all I need to do is figure out the mystery of their cousin and then I'm all set with this lot :clap:

Janet in Yorkshire
25-02-14, 08:55
ahh rightio..

I couldn't spot a bapt for JT or a burial for Emma, BUT the london burials are not covered very well, so they could be adding more later. [but at least now you know what happened to Emma and have marriage ref's for both marriages] :)

Weren't a lot of burials of London deceased carried out elsewhere by this time? (Necropolis Railway/Cemetery Railway) In which case perhaps the records are with the relevant cemeteries. I believe the largest, Brookwood, is privately owned and that the search fees are quite expensive.

Jay

Darksecretz
25-02-14, 11:26
Hallelujah

Now all I need to do is figure out the mystery of their cousin and then I'm all set with this lot :clap:

I read the other thread, but it didn't make much sense to me, can you clarify please Sarah exactly what you are looking for :)

oh and I have been looking into the 'Simpson' line [Mary Anns parentage] I can't find the parents together at all before 1861, as for the older children, they seem to be farmed out here and there between other family members, but I found James [Marys father] in 1851 as a lodger but married, to say it's bugging me is and understatement ....lol


Weren't a lot of burials of London deceased carried out elsewhere by this time? (Necropolis Railway/Cemetery Railway) In which case perhaps the records are with the relevant cemeteries. I believe the largest, Brookwood, is privately owned and that the search fees are quite expensive.

Jay


I don't know Jay.. simple answer :)

lennon2011
25-02-14, 12:34
I read the other thread, but it didn't make much sense to me, can you clarify please Sarah exactly what you are looking for :)


According to the 1881 Census of the 3rd son, William is reported to have a daughter named Anna born in Stockton, 1879 and in the 1891 Census the name is changed to Annie but there's only one Annie born in Stockton in 1879/80 and that's Robert's Daughter, the twin of George (my great Granddad)

Anna/Annie is the daughter of William & Rosanna/Rosena/Rose who also have:
Sarah Jane born in Suffolk, 1870
William born in Stockton, 1877, died in 1879
Elizabeth born in Stockton, 1887

There may be more that I have yet to find at there's a rather large gap.

1881 Census

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1881&h=3881601&ti=5538&indiv=try&gss=pt&ssrc=pt_t45725931_p6452416643_kpidz0q3d6452416643z 0q26pgz0q3d32768z0q26pgplz0q3dpid

1891 Census

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/WFHQ-2ZM

Darksecretz
25-02-14, 14:53
ahh I see I think.. i'm a little pushed for time at the moment but I will have a look later this evening... just finished typing in 400+ people into FTM *I must be mad!!*

lennon2011
25-02-14, 15:24
Good luck with that quest :)

Darksecretz
25-02-14, 17:53
Good luck with that quest :)

I have sore fingers!!.... but, at least now they are in the mini tree.. it would have been even better if I had a gedcom to import the lot into FTM but as it was it all printed out onto 20 sheets... I am dreading the other one as that is 40 pages :eek:

lennon2011
25-02-14, 18:35
Ouch, that's why I'm glad I have Ahnenblatt, it saves me typing everything into a word doc, the program automatically does it..

Darksecretz
25-02-14, 18:40
Ouch, that's why I'm glad I have Ahnenblatt, it saves me typing everything into a word doc, the program automatically does it..

ahh I have FTM 2012 but if I had the file sent as a Gedcom I could have imported it straight away, but, I had to do it all manually, but, at least you get an idea for who is who in the tree...

lennon2011
25-02-14, 18:58
I must actually download a new Gedcom for Ahnenblatt due to the new people..

Darksecretz
25-02-14, 20:07
I must actually download a new Gedcom for Ahnenblatt due to the new people..

:good: :good:

right, been for me walk, got me coffee lets have a look now at your little problem :smilee:

Darksecretz
25-02-14, 20:11
According to the 1881 Census of the 3rd son, William is reported to have a daughter named Anna born in Stockton, 1879 and in the 1891 Census the name is changed to Annie but there's only one Annie born in Stockton in 1879/80 and that's Robert's Daughter, the twin of George (my great Granddad)

Anna/Annie is the daughter of William & Rosanna/Rosena/Rose who also have:
Sarah Jane born in Suffolk, 1870
William born in Stockton, 1877, died in 1879
Elizabeth born in Stockton, 1887

There may be more that I have yet to find at there's a rather large gap.

1881 Census

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1881&h=3881601&ti=5538&indiv=try&gss=pt&ssrc=pt_t45725931_p6452416643_kpidz0q3d6452416643z 0q26pgz0q3d32768z0q26pgplz0q3dpid

1891 Census

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/WFHQ-2ZM

I am a bit confused Sarah, Sarah J is stated as being born in America?? on the 1881 cens.. do you have this family from 1841 through to 1911 please

Darksecretz
25-02-14, 20:47
I see that Sarah J marries William ALLEN and is still stated as being born in USA in 1891.

lennon2011
25-02-14, 21:37
Now that I'm looking I have no idea where I picked that up, wonder if it was Agar?

For Sarah J I have:
1881 Census
1891 Census
1901 Census
1911 Census

I have children and a husband and yet no marriage which I'm sure I had, wait there it is on Stockton Roots, 1890.
I now know why one of the children were named Charlton.

Darksecretz
26-02-14, 07:50
Now that I'm looking I have no idea where I picked that up, wonder if it was Agar?

For Sarah J I have:
1881 Census
1891 Census
1901 Census
1911 Census

I have children and a husband and yet no marriage which I'm sure I had, wait there it is on Stockton Roots, 1890.
I now know why one of the children were named Charlton.

this is what it says for the 1891....

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p117/Darksecretz_2006/SARAHJ_zps7bc887c2.jpg (http://s126.photobucket.com/user/Darksecretz_2006/media/SARAHJ_zps7bc887c2.jpg.html)

Darksecretz
26-02-14, 07:55
bit better close up

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p117/Darksecretz_2006/SJUSA_zps14137ada.jpg (http://s126.photobucket.com/user/Darksecretz_2006/media/SJUSA_zps14137ada.jpg.html)

lennon2011
27-02-14, 14:47
I'm on an Agar tree now through Mundia (took a while to get it working) and it looks as though Sarah J is pointing at the Kansas area on a map even though it still says America. In fact zooming in closer still says Stockton, is there a Stockton in Kansas?

Janet in Yorkshire
27-02-14, 15:05
I'm on an Agar tree now through Mundia (took a while to get it working) and it looks as though Sarah J is pointing at the Kansas area on a map even though it still says America. In fact zooming in closer still says Stockton, is there a Stockton in Kansas?

Yes there is

http://www.stocktonkansas.net/

Jay

lennon2011
27-02-14, 15:42
Thanks for that Janet, I wonder if Mundia automatically pointed the location towards that area as there's no proof of a birth?

lennon2011
03-03-14, 13:21
According to the 1881 Census of the 3rd son, William is reported to have a daughter named Anna born in Stockton, 1879 and in the 1891 Census the name is changed to Annie but there's only one Annie born in Stockton in 1879/80 and that's Robert's Daughter, the twin of George (my great Granddad)

Anna/Annie is the daughter of William & Rosanna/Rosena/Rose who also have:
Sarah Jane born in Suffolk, 1870
William born in Stockton, 1877, died in 1879
Elizabeth born in Stockton, 1887


Not to worry, I've finally found it after such a long time.
All I'll say is that the first 2 on the list are twins (Robert's children)
It's the last one we need:
https://familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bsurname%3Aphillips~%20%2Brecord_country%3 AEngland%20%2Bbirth_place%3Astockton-on-tees%20%2Bbirth_year%3A1879-1879~&collection_id=2285338

I can't believe it was there all along.