Mary WATTS (b c 1836) Glamorgan(?)

[brentor boy]

Looking for Mary Watts, b c 1836. Daughter of Charles (and Elizabeth?) Uncertain of place of birth but grew up in Glamorgan.

Would welcome news of any possible sightings.

[SmallTownGirl]

Could you post details of any census records you have her on please, to see if that helps us?

STG

[SmallTownGirl]

Here's a 1851 census for Merthyr Tydfill for a Charles and Elizabeth with a daughter Mary, b. about the right time.

Don't know much about Welsh place names, but looks like Rofton, Pembrokeshire.

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8861/GLAHO107_2459_2459-0699/15492225?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3frank%3d1%26new%3d1%26MSAV%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gss%3dangs-g%26gsfn%3dmary%26gsln%3dwatts%26gsln_x%3dNS%26msbdy%3d1836%26msfng0%3dcharles%26msmng0%3delizabeth%26cpxt%3d0%26catBucket%3drstp%26uidh%3dykz%26cp%3d11%26pcat%3dROOT_CATEGORY%26h%3d15492225%26recoff%3d6%2b7%2b30%2b44%26db%3duki1851wales%26indiv%3d1%26ml_rpos%3d1&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord

Is this the correct family ?

STG

[Katarzyna]

Could this be her marriage? Family search

David Davies to Mary Watts
1 Apr 1861
Merthyr Tydfil, Glamorgan, Wales
Both 22 yrs old
Single
Father Phillip Davies
Spouse Mary Watts
Single
Spouse's Father Charles Watts

[Katarzyna]

Don't know much about Welsh place names, but looks like Rofton, Pembrokeshire.
STG

This I think is NOLTON, Pembrokeshire, Haverfordwest Reg Dist.

[Katarzyna]

Marriage from Free Reg
Charles Watts to Elizabeth Adams
25 Dec 1832
Narberth Parish Church,
Pembrokeshire

Charles living Eglwys Cymin Cmn. I think that's Carmarthen.

[brentor boy]

This is a piece of "back to front" research which, I know, is completely the wrong way to do things.

My first objective is to identify the Mary Watts who married David Davies in Merthyr Tydfil in 1861, as quoted by Katarzyna in her post. It is my hope that her place of birth might be sufficiently distinctive to enable her to be traced in 1861 and 1871 and reveal details of her children (if any)

My person of specific interest is Herbert Watts Davies who, in 1881 is recorded as b c 1865 and living in the household of Richard Davies in Ystradyfodwg. I can find no other reference to him, in that name, in any other census nor in BMD. He is shown as "son" but I am sure as I can be, without a birth certificate, that he was not Richard's son. This raises the possibility that Richard had married for a second time and Herbert was his step-son. Even restricting myself to the Merthyr Tydfil and Pontypridd areas, to isolate an entry for the death of a Mary Davies, mother of Richard's known children, and the subsequent marriage of a Richard Davies to another Mary, in support of this theory, is an impossible task.

Herbert's stated birth place of Somerset is suspect. I have eliminated Herbert John Hill Watts and Herbert Watts Smith, both of Somerset. I cannot be certain that, at birth, Herbert was registered in the name Davies which could have been allocated to him later. I have already determined that Richard's grandson, recorded as Benjamin D Jones, was probably registered as Benjamin Jones Davies.

As a result of all this I believe the only faint chance of establishing Herbert's identity is finding a child of that name the product of a Davies/Watts marriage, which takes me back to my starting point. Any alternative suggestions would be warmly received!

[Katarzyna]

I think Ancestry is overloaded with all the "new" stuff uploaded today. Will try again later.

[Katarzyna]

This is the 1881 census:

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&db=uki1881wales&rank=1&new=1&MSAV=1&msT=1&gss=angs-d&gsfn=Herbert+Watts+&gsln=Davies&msbdy=1865&msrpn__ftp=Ystradyfodwg&dbOnly=_F00027B9|_F00027B9_x%2c_F0003039|_F0003039_x%2c_F000303A|_F000303A_x%2c_83004006|_83004006_x%2c_F00032DB|_F00032DB_x&uidh=5u8&pcat=35&fh=0&h=5523484&recoff=&ml_rpos=1

Living Ystradyfodwg, Glamorgan, Wales

Richard Davies 46 Head Coal miner b Swansea, Glamorgan, Wales
Mary Davies 45 wife b Merthyr, Glamorgan, Wales
Sarah Ann Davies 16 dau b Merthyr, Glamorgan, Wales
Rees Davies 13 son b Merthyr, Glamorgan, Wales
Jane Davies 9 dau b Ystradyfodwg, Glamorgan, Wales
Benjamin D. Jones 4 grandson b Ystradyfodwg, Glamorgan, Wales
Herbert Watts Davies 16 son coal miner b Somerset, England
Jane Rees 66 mother in law b Breconshire, Wales

I see your point. Sarah Ann and Herbert are of the same age . He is listed below all the others as though not being part of the family but listed as a son.

Do you have the 1871 census for RICHARD and MARY?

Possibly in the same place as Jane Davies was born Ystradyfodwg, Glamorgan,

[Katarzyna]

This could be them in 1871 :

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1871wales&indiv=try&h=26839095

Living Ystradyfodwg, Glamorgan, Wales

Richd Davies 37 Swansea, Glamorganshire, Wales
Mary Davies 36 Dowlais, Glamorganshire,
Elizabeth Davies 12 Dowlais, Glamorganshire,
Sarah Ann Davies 6 Aberdare, Glamorganshire,
Rees Davies 3 Aberdare, Glamorganshire


No Herbert!

[Katarzyna]

Are you thinking that the Mary in the above census 1871 died and that the Mary in 1881 is his second wife with Herbert therefore his Step son? If so then you're are assuming that Herbert Watts took on Davies surname by 1881? Mother would have been Watts either as a single parent or as a widow. Therefore she would have been married (or not) previously to a WATTS. Herbert would be the product of a Mary whoever /Watts marriage. Then we are looking for a Richard Davies/ Mary Watts marriage between 1871 and 1881 and a Mary whoever /Watts marriage c 1865 .

Cannot see your reasoning for the original look ups re David Davies to Mary Watts

Just trying to get these facts right in my head. Maybe I'm just not quite with it this morning.

[Katarzyna]

I might be a good idea to get the birth cert of daughter Elizabeth and of the youngest Jane to see if the Mother's are the same.

[Katarzyna]

1861 census
Richd Davies 26 Swansea
Mary Davies 25 Merthyr-Tydfil, Glamorgan,
Elizabeth Davies 2 Merthyr-Tydfil, Glamorgan,
Enock 17 boarder

Living Dowlais, Glamorgan

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1861wales&indiv=try&h=13612725

[brentor boy]

That's the family, Kat.

I have the birth certificates for Sarah Ann and Rees which confirm they are the children of Richard's (first?) wife. I assume Jane is also. Jane Rees, formerly Llewellyn, was this wife's mother and I presume the child was given her name. If this is a second wife, it does a seem little strange that the mother of his first wife should be a member of the household. But, of course, anything is possible.

[brentor boy]

It is most probable that Enoch, in 1861, was the brother of Richard. They were together in 1851, living in Swansea, with father Benjamin. Enoch born Mar Q 1844, Swansea.

[Katarzyna]

I did find this marriage:

Davies Richard Merthyr T 11a ___ Jun 1860
they do not have a reference to a scan for this entry but can be searched for.

http://www2.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?r=30598538&d=bmd_1387820160

It was transcribed by 3 people and they couldn't get the right no.



But the only Jun 1860 for a marriage for Mary Rees was this:

Marriages Jun 1860 Merthyr T 11a 569
Davies Carbetta
Morgan David
Price Evan
REES Mary Ann

[brentor boy]

Richard Davies married Mary Llewellyn 29 June 1856, Merthyr Tydfil. Mary was daughter of Jane(t) (Davies) and Jenkin (deceased) Llewellyn. Born circa 1835 Dowlais.

Jane Llewellyn (widow- daughter of Rees Davies) married John Rees 4 Oct 1862 Dowlais, Merthyr Tydfil. Witness Richard Davies.

Jane Davies/Llewellyn/Rees born Breconshire circa 1815.

I am satisfied beyond any reasonable doubt that Jane Rees is not related to any second wife.

Thought I might be on to something when I found Richard Davies and Mary Herbert on same page March 1878, Merthyr Tydfil and the birth of a Herbert Herbert registered in Merthyr in Sep 1864. Does 1871 show any connection between Mary and Herbert?