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stevefraseruk
06-01-14, 17:24
Hi,

I am new to the site and thought I would ask about a piece of my tree that has perplexed me for a number of years.

I have located my Great-Great-Grandfather Charles Fraser, his wife Anne (Annie) and there 10 children on the 1911 and 1901 census in London. On the 1891 census in London, Charles is not present but Annie and all the children are (all be it being transcribed under the wrong family name by Ancestry).

These census's give the place of birth of Annie and her older children as Bolton and Manchester, the 1911 census gives the estimated marriage date as being 1876 which ties in with the birth of there eldest child Florence born in 1877, however on searching for the marriage, none is found, nor is any census details for the growing family in the 1881 census. The family should be in 1881 as below



Charles
1852
Scotland


Anne
1853
Manchester


Florence
1877
Manchester


Emily Adeline
1879
Manchester


Francis
1881
Manchester



I have not been able to find any information to support this .

Any thoughts or help would be greatly appreciated.

Steve Fraser

Night Owl
06-01-14, 17:58
Hi Steve and welcome to the forum

Looking at births for Emily Adeline in the Manchester area c1879, the one that looks most obvious is Emily Adeline Fasana Chorlton Q/E March 1879

The 1881 has Francis Fasana (26, shoemaker) with wife Ann b 1853 Manchester together with children Florence J (4), Emily A (2) and Francis A (3 months) which would tie in with the older children

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1881&indiv=try&h=10359196

RG11 piece 3918, folio: 77, page 25

Val wish Id never started
06-01-14, 18:06
in 1911 it says Charles was born in Lancashire is that right ?

Darksecretz
06-01-14, 18:10
this looks to be the marriage:


Name: Francis Fasana
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1876
Registration District: Chorlton
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume Number: 8c
Page Number:1058

possible spouse- Annie Fidler or Emily Augusta Rylance

do you subscribe to Ancestry at all Steve??

link to marriage ref in index ---- http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=FreeBMDMarriage&h=9529753&indiv=try&o_vc=Record:OtherRecord&tid=51124177&tpid=26074879748&rhSource=7619

stevefraseruk
06-01-14, 18:11
They do all tie in with dates and names of older children, now have to tie them in to possible husbands death and her remarraige to Charles in mid 1880's.

Thank you for the pointer will start looking for further cluse to tie this together.

Val wish Id never started
06-01-14, 18:12
Francis Fasana married Annie Fidler in Chorlton Lancashire in Jun 1876 8C 1058

oh pooh beat me to it

Darksecretz
06-01-14, 18:18
Hi Steve and welcome to the forum

Looking at births for Emily Adeline in the Manchester area c1879, the one that looks most obvious is Emily Adeline Fasana Chorlton Q/E March 1879

The 1881 has Francis Fasana (26, shoemaker) with wife Ann b 1853 Manchester together with children Florence J (4), Emily A (2) and Francis A (3 months) which would tie in with the older children

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1881&indiv=try&h=10359196

RG11 piece 3918, folio: 77, page 25

oops I have gone off on a tangent here... apologies Steve.. this Francis [is the one I gave the marriage ref for, but his parents appear to be John & Elizabeth] so not what we are looking for..

Val wish Id never started
06-01-14, 18:19
Death for a Francis Fasana in Mar 1897 Prestwich Lancashire 8D 290 age 46

Darksecretz
06-01-14, 18:21
They do all tie in with dates and names of older children, now have to tie them in to possible husbands death and her remarraige to Charles in mid 1880's.

Thank you for the pointer will start looking for further cluse to tie this together.

Steve,

do you have the hyperlink for the 1911 census at all? I'm getting in a bit of a muddle..

Darksecretz
06-01-14, 18:23
Death for a Francis Fasana in Mar 1897 Prestwich Lancashire 8D 290 age 46

so, if Francis dies in 1897.. Annie is then what? living as though she was married to Charles? [she can't have married him in 1876 cos that is when she married Francis]

stevefraseruk
06-01-14, 18:33
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=1911england&h=590408&ti=5538&indiv=try&gss=pt&ssrc=pt_t13919572_p18301709_kpidz0q3d18301709z0q26 pgz0q3d32768z0q26pgplz0q3dpid

think this 1911 link

Darksecretz
06-01-14, 18:42
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=1911england&h=590408&ti=5538&indiv=try&gss=pt&ssrc=pt_t13919572_p18301709_kpidz0q3d18301709z0q26 pgz0q3d32768z0q26pgplz0q3dpid

think this 1911 link

ta!.. do you think that it is possible that Annie was married first to Francis and then somewhere along the lines she set up house with Charles?

stevefraseruk
06-01-14, 18:42
This is link to 1891

Where Annie is listed as 2nd wife of person next door

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1891&h=12090377&ti=5538&indiv=try&gss=pt&ssrc=pt_t13919572_p18300844_kpidz0q3d18300844z0q26 pgz0q3d32768z0q26pgplz0q3dpid

stevefraseruk
06-01-14, 18:44
ta!.. do you think that it is possible that Annie was married first to Francis and then somewhere along the lines she set up house with Charles?

Yes that is a possibility, need to cross check and find marriage if possible or some other record to confirm it.

Val wish Id never started
06-01-14, 19:00
why would she say married that long? surely if she was legally married she would say how long she had been married to Charles ? seems odd.

Darksecretz
06-01-14, 19:02
Yes that is a possibility, need to cross check and find marriage if possible or some other record to confirm it.

hmm, on Lawrences marriage cert [1914] he states Charles as his father. [and Lawrence was b 1892]

Name: Lawrence Reginald Fraser
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1892
Registration District: Edmonton
Inferred County: Middlesex
Volume: 3a
Page: 312

[his birth^^^]

I don't see the twins after 1891 did they die at all? maybe there will be something in the parish records re bapts or death index..

have to nip out now but will be back a little later..

stevefraseruk
06-01-14, 19:09
Yes that is a possibility, need to cross check and find marriage if possible or some other record to confirm it.

Having checked my links, I have birth records for the children Adrian 1886, Rupert 1888, Horace and Vincent 1890, Lawrence 1893, Stephen 1894 and Paul 1899 all registered as Fraser. That points to Charles and Annie getting together between 1881 census and 1886 when Adrian was born.

stevefraseruk
06-01-14, 19:14
hmm, on Lawrences marriage cert [1914] he states Charles as his father. [and Lawrence was b 1892]

Name: Lawrence Reginald Fraser
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1892
Registration District: Edmonton
Inferred County: Middlesex
Volume: 3a
Page: 312

[his birth^^^]

I don't see the twins after 1891 did they die at all? maybe there will be something in the parish records re bapts or death index..

have to nip out now but will be back a little later..

Horace died in 1891 aged 1

http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/pt/ViewRecordRedir.aspx?tid=13919572&pid=5010798641&dbid=8914&rpid=12105820&nam=Horace%2bNelson%2bFraser&pg=32768&pgpl=pid

Vincent is still shown on census's

Val wish Id never started
06-01-14, 19:24
17071death record of Francis Safana in The Manchester Evening News 25 Feb 1897

stevefraseruk
06-01-14, 20:15
17071death record of Francis Safana in The Manchester Evening News 25 Feb 1897

Checking the death records

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?rank=1&new=1&MSAV=1&msT=1&gss=angs-c&gsfn=Francis&gsln=Fasana&msbdy=1855&msddy=1890&msdpn__ftp=Manchester%2c+Lancashire%2c+England&msdpn=84924&msdpn_PInfo=8-%7c0%7c0%7c3257%7c3251%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c5271%7c84924% 7c0%7c&cpxt=1&uidh=ii2&msddp=10&cp=11&pcat=BMD_DEATH&h=11186611&db=FreeBMDDeath&indiv=1&ml_rpos=1

This shows him as about 46 at death, making his birth 1851 - where census shown birth 1855

Darksecretz
06-01-14, 20:26
why would she say married that long? surely if she was legally married she would say how long she had been married to Charles ? seems odd.

the fact that she states she was married in 1876 to me says that she for whatever reason split up from Francis sometime around 1881, she then met Charles and lived with him as though she was married.. which in truth she was, as she was still married to Francis, it wasn't until Francis died that she became legally free to then marry Charles should she wish. I would get a birth cert for one of the later children and also one of the earlier ones, at least then you should get MMN and hopefully it'll give her MN as Fidler

Darksecretz
06-01-14, 20:27
Checking the death records

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?rank=1&new=1&MSAV=1&msT=1&gss=angs-c&gsfn=Francis&gsln=Fasana&msbdy=1855&msddy=1890&msdpn__ftp=Manchester%2c+Lancashire%2c+England&msdpn=84924&msdpn_PInfo=8-%7c0%7c0%7c3257%7c3251%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c5271%7c84924% 7c0%7c&cpxt=1&uidh=ii2&msddp=10&cp=11&pcat=BMD_DEATH&h=11186611&db=FreeBMDDeath&indiv=1&ml_rpos=1

This shows him as about 46 at death, making his birth 1851 - where census shown birth 1855

you have to remember though that the person that registered the death might not have known exactly when/what year Francis was born [esp if there were a lot of siblings] very hard to remember 10 lots of birthdays..

Darksecretz
06-01-14, 20:29
Hi Steve and welcome to the forum

Looking at births for Emily Adeline in the Manchester area c1879, the one that looks most obvious is Emily Adeline Fasana Chorlton Q/E March 1879

The 1881 has Francis Fasana (26, shoemaker) with wife Ann b 1853 Manchester together with children Florence J (4), Emily A (2) and Francis A (3 months) which would tie in with the older children

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1881&indiv=try&h=10359196

RG11 piece 3918, folio: 77, page 25

sorry Jackie.. I seem to have got carried away :(

bit of an odd name though isn't it?

Darksecretz
06-01-14, 20:31
lots of info on Francis Fasana here!

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Francis+Fasana&oq=Francis+Fasana&aqs=chrome..69i57&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8

Olde Crone Holden
06-01-14, 21:25
Francis Fasana's birth registered 1855, Lancsbmd.

OC

stevefraseruk
06-01-14, 21:35
Francis Fasana's birth registered 1855, Lancsbmd.

OC

Thanks, found on ancestry already. It's the cross over from Francis Fasana to Charles Fraser that I'm trying to sort out. Cannot find remarriage record, will have to check birth cert's for Adrian onwards as all named Fraser, as are the 3 from Annie's marriage to Francis Fasana on subsequent census's and marriage records.

Olde Crone Holden
06-01-14, 21:42
Sorry, I thought you were unsure about his age (post #20).

As Charles was Scottish, there is an outside chance they married in Scotland (but I doubt they did). The adoption of the surname Fraser doesn't mean they were married but it is a good pointer as to when she took up with him.

OC

Anne in Carlisle
06-01-14, 22:47
Steve says in post #1 that Charles Fraser was born Scotland. BUT the 1911 census says Manchester.
Not sure which is correct? I had been wondering about a Scottish marriage too.
Anne

Olde Crone Holden
06-01-14, 23:08
Had a quick search on SP but not seeing a Charles Fraser to Fasana or Fidler.

OC

stevefraseruk
07-01-14, 00:03
Had a quick search on SP but not seeing a Charles Fraser to Fasana or Fidler.

OC

That's what I have been finding, no marriage details anywhere for Charles and Annie, but were together on 1901 and 1911 census's as husband and wife

Darksecretz
07-01-14, 08:12
the fact that she states she was married in 1876 to me says that she for whatever reason split up from Francis sometime around 1881, she then met Charles and lived with him as though she was married.. which in truth she was, as she was still married to Francis, it wasn't until Francis died that she became legally free to then marry Charles should she wish. I would get a birth cert for one of the later children and also one of the earlier ones, at least then you should get MMN and hopefully it'll give her MN as Fidler

the lack of a marriage to me suggests that she lived with Charles and to all intents and purposes were married [to outsiders] but legally she was still married to Francis so she couldn't get married to Charles. [so you may never find that marriage] but I still think that checking the b/certs would be a wise route to go down.

Darksecretz
07-01-14, 08:24
1861 UK census for Charles with parents William & Agnes: http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1861&h=14612782&indiv=try&o_vc=Record:OtherRecord&rhSource=7814

seems that at least Charles & Rupert went to Australia..

Australia Death Index, 1787-1985 about Charles Fraser
Name: Charles Fraser
Death Date: 30 Dec 1911
Death Place: Queensland
Father's Name: William Fraser
Mother's Name: Agnes Inglis
Registration Year: 1912
Registration Place: Queensland
Registration number: 000224
Page Number: 8666




Australia Death Index, 1787-1985 about Rupert Fraser
Name: Rupert Fraser
Death Place: Fran, Victoria
Age: 75
Father's Name: Charles
Mother's Name: Unknown Annie
Registration Year: 1964
Registration Place: Victoria
Registration number: 7250
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1889.

Darksecretz
07-01-14, 08:30
why would she say married that long? surely if she was legally married she would say how long she had been married to Charles ? seems odd.

I think that she gave 1876 as their marriage because her eldest child, florence was born in/abt 1877 so to 'cover' her tracks and make it look like Florence was indeed Charles' daughter she said they married in 1876. [which would nicely avoid any tricky questions about the childrens' biological father]

stevefraseruk
07-01-14, 09:04
1861 UK census for Charles with parents William & Agnes: http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1861&h=14612782&indiv=try&o_vc=Record:OtherRecord&rhSource=7814

seems that at least Charles & Rupert went to Australia..

Australia Death Index, 1787-1985 about Charles Fraser
Name: Charles Fraser
Death Date: 30 Dec 1911
Death Place: Queensland
Father's Name: William Fraser
Mother's Name: Agnes Inglis
Registration Year: 1912
Registration Place: Queensland
Registration number: 000224
Page Number: 8666


Thank you for the information on Rupert, I have that already, both Rupert and Stephen went out to Australia. However I am not sure about Charles as he is shown as living at 259 Puntney Bridge Road, London up to 1927 in the electoral registers, also with him still are Annie, Vincent, Paul and Adrian. That is why I am unsure about the death for Charles you have found.

Thanks for your help though.

Darksecretz
07-01-14, 11:41
Thank you for the information on Rupert, I have that already, both Rupert and Stephen went out to Australia. However I am not sure about Charles as he is shown as living at 259 Puntney Bridge Road, London up to 1927 in the electoral registers, also with him still are Annie, Vincent, Paul and Adrian. That is why I am unsure about the death for Charles you have found.

Thanks for your help though.

thats ok Steve, I wasn't sure about what info you did have exactly for Charles.. do you have him at al on any previous census, prior to him being with Annie?

stevefraseruk
07-01-14, 11:52
thats ok Steve, I wasn't sure about what info you did have exactly for Charles.. do you have him at al on any previous census, prior to him being with Annie?

The only census's I have him on are 1901 and 1911. I thought I had him on the 1861 but in light of the fact he probably didn't meet Annie till the 1880's now I'm not even sure of that :(

Lots more research and work needed to check now

Darksecretz
07-01-14, 12:02
do you have any of the wills for those that have died at all Steve?

Adrian - http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=UKProbateCal&h=14351508&indiv=try&o_vc=Record:OtherRecord&rhSource=7814

Darksecretz
07-01-14, 12:08
sorry for all the questions just trying to see if I can find anything.. can you list the info that you do have so that I don't duplicate, and please if any of the children are still alive then we have a policy of not allowing their names on the forum, [for their privacy]

do you know when Charles/Annie died at all?

margaretmarch
07-01-14, 12:11
17071death record of Francis Safana in The Manchester Evening News 25 Feb 1897

The fact that Francis dies at his father's house supports the theory that he and Annie had separated before his death.

Margaret

margaretmarch
07-01-14, 12:16
1861 UK census for Charles with parents William & Agnes: http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1861&h=14612782&indiv=try&o_vc=Record:OtherRecord&rhSource=7814

seems that at least Charles & Rupert went to Australia..

Australia Death Index, 1787-1985 about Charles Fraser
Name: Charles Fraser
Death Date: 30 Dec 1911
Death Place: Queensland
Father's Name: William Fraser
Mother's Name: Agnes Inglis
Registration Year: 1912
Registration Place: Queensland
Registration number: 000224
Page Number: 8666


I don't think this is the right Charles as we have him in London in 1911 running a confectionery business and living with his wife and their adult children.

Margaret

margaretmarch
07-01-14, 12:20
do you have any of the wills for those that have died at all Steve?

Adrian - http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=UKProbateCal&h=14351508&indiv=try&o_vc=Record:OtherRecord&rhSource=7814

That's an interesting find as he died in a hospital; in Edinburgh yet his address was Surrey.

Margaret

Darksecretz
07-01-14, 12:33
That's an interesting find as he died in a hospital; in Edinburgh yet his address was Surrey.

Margaret

that kind of puzzled me too, maybe he took ill whilst 'on the road' business?

I think too that the Charles I found in Aus isn't right now in light of other info we have uncovered.. though I am still struggling to find him at all prior to Annie!. and where is he in 1891? did we find that? [annie & children are down as Hendrie, but has been transcribed from previous family]

he seems to be a man of means so has to be somewhere..

stevefraseruk
07-01-14, 13:01
Information I have up to now, not including census and electoral rolls





Forenames
Surnames
M / F
Birth
Place
Death
Place


Charles
Fraser
M
1852
Scotland ?
Unknown
Unknown


Annie / Anne
Fraser / Fasana? / Fidler?
F
1853
Manchester
Unknown
Unknown


Florence
Fraser / Fasana?
F
1877
Manchester
Unknown
Unknown


Emily Adeline
Fraser / Fasana?
F
1879
Manchester
1969
London


Francis
Fraser / Fasana?
M
1881
Manchester
Unknown
Unknown


Adrian
Fraser
M
1886
Bolton
1964
Edinburgh


Rupert
Fraser
M
1888
Bolton
1964
Frankston, Victoria, AUS


Horace Nelson
Fraser
M
1890
Wood Green, London
1891
London


Vincent Ravensmere
Fraser
M
1890
Wood Green, London
1963
Nottingham


Lawrence Reginald
Fraser
M
1893
Wood Green, London
1916
Flanders Fields, France


Stephen Randolph
Fraser
M
1894
Wood Green, London
1987
Stratton, Cornwall


Paul Raymond
Fraser
M
1899
Wood Green, London
Unknown
Unknown

stevefraseruk
07-01-14, 13:05
Lawrence Reginald who died in war is my great grandfather. There is some connection to Edinburgh as both my grand parents are buried there at Tranent in a family plot I believe, Lawrence Reginald 1914 - 1975 and Marie Veronica Hart McCabe 1915 - 1999.

Darksecretz
07-01-14, 13:05
thats brill thanks, do you have death certs/wills for those that you know have passed?

I have been looking to see if I can spot Francis Fasana in 1891 [as we know he died in 1897] BUT he isn't with his parents in 1891, so has to be somewhere.

stevefraseruk
07-01-14, 13:14
thats brill thanks, do you have death certs/wills for those that you know have passed?

I have been looking to see if I can spot Francis Fasana in 1891 [as we know he died in 1897] BUT he isn't with his parents in 1891, so has to be somewhere.

I have not got any certificates, as lost in family splits so need to sort and afford copies.

From word of mouth - my grandmother says that Francis went to Canada, I know she visited out there

stevefraseruk
07-01-14, 13:19
Francis is on 1891 and 1901 census's

http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/pt/ViewRecordRedir.aspx?tid=13919572&pid=18311448&dbid=6598&rpid=12689292&nam=Francis%2bFraser&pg=32768&pgpl=pid

http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/pt/ViewRecordRedir.aspx?tid=13919572&pid=18311448&dbid=7814&rpid=7370996&nam=Francis%2bFraser&pg=32768&pgpl=pid

So can't have died in 1897

Olde Crone Holden
07-01-14, 13:29
Ann Fidler born 1853 Chorlton on Medlock seems likely although there is another, born 1854, Ardwick.

stevefraseruk
07-01-14, 13:32
Thanks, will see if I can find conformations to prove connections

Darksecretz
07-01-14, 13:53
Francis is on 1891 and 1901 census's

http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/pt/ViewRecordRedir.aspx?tid=13919572&pid=18311448&dbid=6598&rpid=12689292&nam=Francis%2bFraser&pg=32768&pgpl=pid

http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/pt/ViewRecordRedir.aspx?tid=13919572&pid=18311448&dbid=7814&rpid=7370996&nam=Francis%2bFraser&pg=32768&pgpl=pid

So can't have died in 1897

sorry Steve, I meant Francis Fasana b. 1855 Manchester [probably Francis b. 1881 biological father] it is Francis sr that dies in 1897.

Darksecretz
07-01-14, 13:57
there are 'some' marriage certs on Ancestry in the LMA collections of the later Fasana/Fraser children, copies of these would certainly help you out financially [and we all like something for nothing] :smilee: shout up if you would like these..

there may also be details of the births/marriages on Lancs BMD [though I don't know how to use that site] so might be helpful there.. also Ancestry has 'some' Manchester bapts online too, this would also help if we could find some there. [though I have looked but not found anything as of yet!]

stevefraseruk
07-01-14, 14:11
LMA collections? I have ancestry worldwide subscription so where would I find these?

Darksecretz
07-01-14, 14:11
I think I might have found Francis in Canada, in 1911/1921 census.. with wife Mabel and two children Adrian & Mabel living in Ontario.

1911: http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=1911Canada&h=6817898&indiv=try&o_vc=Record:OtherRecord&rhSource=8991

1921: http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?rank=1&new=1&ssrc=pt_t51124177_p26074879748&MSAV=1&msT=1&gss=angs-g&gsfn=fra**&gsln=fras**&msbdy=1881&msbpn__ftp=Lancashire%2c+England&msbpn=5271&msbpn_PInfo=7-%7c0%7c0%7c3257%7c3251%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c5271%7c0%7c0% 7c&cpxt=1&catBucket=rstp&uidh=lg3&msbdp=2&cp=3&pcat=ROOT_CATEGORY&h=1772779&db=CanCen1921&indiv=1&ml_rpos=17

Darksecretz
07-01-14, 14:13
LMA collections? I have ancestry worldwide subscription so where would I find these?

here you go : http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/group/london_met_archives

though if you search for Lawrences marriage [I think it was] it is there, as I saw it yesterday..

Darksecretz
07-01-14, 14:15
here you go : http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/group/london_met_archives

though if you search for Lawrences marriage [I think it was] it is there, as I saw it yesterday..


Lawrences marriage
here you go: http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&db=lmamarriages&rank=1&new=1&MSAV=1&msT=1&gss=angs-d&gsfn=law**&gsln=fraser&msrpn__ftp=Middlesex%2c+England&msrpn=5275&msrpn_PInfo=7-%7c0%7c0%7c3257%7c3251%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c5275%7c0%7c0% 7c&uidh=lg3&pcat=LONDON_MET_ARCHIVES&fh=3&h=4674955&recoff=11+13+37&ml_rpos=4

stevefraseruk
07-01-14, 14:28
I think I might have found Francis in Canada, in 1911/1921 census.. with wife Mabel and two children Adrian & Mabel living in Ontario.

1911: http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=1911Canada&h=6817898&indiv=try&o_vc=Record:OtherRecord&rhSource=8991

1921: http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?rank=1&new=1&ssrc=pt_t51124177_p26074879748&MSAV=1&msT=1&gss=angs-g&gsfn=fra**&gsln=fras**&msbdy=1881&msbpn__ftp=Lancashire%2c+England&msbpn=5271&msbpn_PInfo=7-%7c0%7c0%7c3257%7c3251%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c5271%7c0%7c0% 7c&cpxt=1&catBucket=rstp&uidh=lg3&msbdp=2&cp=3&pcat=ROOT_CATEGORY&h=1772779&db=CanCen1921&indiv=1&ml_rpos=17

That ties in with address book of my grandmother which names Adrian and Mable as Francis's children. Thank you so much for helping with that.

Darksecretz
07-01-14, 14:35
That ties in with address book of my grandmother which names Adrian and Mable as Francis's children. Thank you so much for helping with that.

no worries.. do you know what happened to them at all? I can't see frank in later census, will have a look on Mabel

Darksecretz
07-01-14, 14:38
not sure if you have this: http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?rank=1&new=1&ssrc=pt_t51124177_p26074879748&MSAV=1&msT=1&gss=angs-g&gsfn=adr**&gsln=fras**&msbdy=1913&msbpn__ftp=Ontario%2c+Canada&msbpn=5007&msbpn_PInfo=5-%7c0%7c1652393%7c0%7c3243%7c0%7c5007%7c0%7c0%7c0%7 c0%7c&cpxt=1&catBucket=rstp&uidh=lg3&msbdp=2&cp=0&pcat=ROOT_CATEGORY&h=2651939&recoff=9+20+23+54&db=ontario_births&indiv=1&ml_rpos=3

stevefraseruk
07-01-14, 14:45
No that ties in though thank you very much :o;D

Darksecretz
07-01-14, 14:46
not sure if you have this: http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?rank=1&new=1&ssrc=pt_t51124177_p26074879748&MSAV=1&msT=1&gss=angs-g&gsfn=adr**&gsln=fras**&msbdy=1913&msbpn__ftp=Ontario%2c+Canada&msbpn=5007&msbpn_PInfo=5-%7c0%7c1652393%7c0%7c3243%7c0%7c5007%7c0%7c0%7c0%7 c0%7c&cpxt=1&catBucket=rstp&uidh=lg3&msbdp=2&cp=0&pcat=ROOT_CATEGORY&h=2651939&recoff=9+20+23+54&db=ontario_births&indiv=1&ml_rpos=3

and Mabels: http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?rank=1&new=1&ssrc=pt_t51124177_p26074879748&MSAV=1&msT=1&gss=angs-g&gsfn=mab*&gsln=fras**&msbdy=1911&msbpn__ftp=Ontario%2c+Canada&msbpn=5007&msbpn_PInfo=5-%7c0%7c1652393%7c0%7c3243%7c0%7c5007%7c0%7c0%7c0%7 c0%7c&cpxt=1&catBucket=rstp&uidh=lg3&msbdp=2&cp=3&pcat=ROOT_CATEGORY&h=2371897&recoff=7+8+26+39&db=ontario_births&indiv=1&ml_rpos=1

Darksecretz
07-01-14, 14:47
No that ties in though thank you very much :o;D

welcome.. sorry if I am going a little fast, just that when you start looking it kind of gets addictive...lol

stevefraseruk
07-01-14, 14:52
I know that feeling started in 2000 and never stopped since, even do research for other friends LOL

Darksecretz
07-01-14, 14:57
nothing much is forthcoming at the moment, and I have to go and pick the children up shortly... I will have another look later, [and have a think!]

stevefraseruk
07-01-14, 14:58
Just found this now too

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?rank=1&new=1&ssrc=pt_t13919572_p18000641409_kpidz0q3d1800064140 9z0q26pgz0q3d32768z0q26pgplz0q3dpid_m1&MSAV=1&msT=1&gss=angs-c&gsfn=Mabel&gsln=Glass&msbdy=1884&msbpn__ftp=England&msrpn__ftp=Toronto+Ward+6%2c+York+South%2c+Ontario %2c+Canada&cpxt=1&uidh=ii2&cp=3&mssng0=Francis+Antoma&mssns0=Fraser&pcat=BMD_MARRIAGE&h=3057449&recoff=7+9+53&db=OntarioMarr1858-1899_ga&indiv=1&ml_rpos=1

Darksecretz
07-01-14, 16:32
Just found this now too

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?rank=1&new=1&ssrc=pt_t13919572_p18000641409_kpidz0q3d1800064140 9z0q26pgz0q3d32768z0q26pgplz0q3dpid_m1&MSAV=1&msT=1&gss=angs-c&gsfn=Mabel&gsln=Glass&msbdy=1884&msbpn__ftp=England&msrpn__ftp=Toronto+Ward+6%2c+York+South%2c+Ontario %2c+Canada&cpxt=1&uidh=ii2&cp=3&mssng0=Francis+Antoma&mssns0=Fraser&pcat=BMD_MARRIAGE&h=3057449&recoff=7+9+53&db=OntarioMarr1858-1899_ga&indiv=1&ml_rpos=1

good call!! I wonder if she remarried? [which might be why we can't spot Frank & Co in later census] [that is of course IF there are any later census in Canada that have been released] I know that USA go to 1940.

stevefraseruk
09-01-14, 07:45
Both Charles and Annie are shown as being at the same property with 3 of remaining children in 1927 electoral register

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1795/40020_190931-00485/90526903?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dLMAelectoralreg%26rank%3d1%26 new%3d1%26so%3d3%26ssrc%3dpt_t13919572_p18300844_k pidz0q3d18300844z0q26pgz0q3d32768z0q26pgplz0q3dpid _m1%26MSAV%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gss%3dms_r_db%26gsfn%3d Anne%26gsln%3dFraser%26gsln_x%3dXO%26msrpn__ftp%3d Wandsworth%252c%2bLondon%252c%2bEngland%26msydy%3d 1928%26dbOnly%3d_F0005A49%257c_F0005A49_x%26uidh%3 dii2&ssrc=pt_t13919572_p18300844_kpidz0q3d18300844z0q26 pgz0q3d32768z0q26pgplz0q3dpid_m1&backlabel=ReturnRecord

Also now on 1930 register

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=an&dbid=1795&iid=40020_190918-01015&fn=Anne&ln=&st=r&ssrc=&pid=95100217

So now would put them in there late 70's so there must be death records for them both sometime after 1930 ??

stevefraseruk
09-01-14, 08:06
Now located on 1931

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=an&dbid=1795&iid=40020_190688-00521&fn=Anne&ln=&st=r&ssrc=&pid=95226653

Darksecretz
09-01-14, 12:45
Now located on 1931

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=an&dbid=1795&iid=40020_190688-00521&fn=Anne&ln=&st=r&ssrc=&pid=95226653


guess what I have found :Big Grin:

Darksecretz
09-01-14, 12:47
have a look here : http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1904/31874_222484-00293/2868797?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dUKProbateCal%26h%3d2868797%26 indiv%3dtry%26o_vc%3dRecord%253aOtherRecord%26rhSo urce%3d7579&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord

and so you have the record from the index, [so you can possibly order a cert later]

Name: Annie Fraser
Birth Date: abt 1854
Date of Registration: Mar 1941
Age at Death: 87
Registration District: Surrey Mid eastern
Inferred County: Surrey
Volume: 2a
Page: 638

Darksecretz
09-01-14, 13:02
what about this?

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&db=ONSDeath93&rank=1&new=1&ssrc=pt_t51124177_p26074879748&MSAV=1&msT=1&gss=angs-d&gsfn=charles&gsln=fras**&msbdy=1852&msbpn__ftp=Lancashire%2c+England&msbpn=5271&msbpn_PInfo=7-%7c0%7c0%7c3257%7c3251%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c5271%7c0%7c0% 7c&msddy=1930&msdpn__ftp=Middlesex%2c+England&msdpn=5275&msdpn_PInfo=7-%7c0%7c0%7c3257%7c3251%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c5275%7c0%7c0% 7c&dbOnly=_F00056EC%7c_F00056EC_x%2c_F0005906%7c_F000 5906_x&uidh=lg3&msbdp=2&msddp=10&pcat=BMD_DEATH&fh=0&h=28443263&recoff=&ml_rpos=1

Name: Charles Fraser
Birth Date: abt 1854
Date of Registration: Sep 1936
Age at Death: 82
Registration District: Camberwell
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1d
Page: 584

stevefraseruk
09-01-14, 13:40
Thank you so much for all your help - owe you lots

Darksecretz
09-01-14, 13:55
Thank you so much for all your help - owe you lots

no problem, it's all about helping each other :smilee: if it helps you then I am happy. [always nice to be able to give a bit back] at least by you having the refs you can then order the certs/wills when funds allow :)

stevefraseruk
09-01-14, 14:19
Talking of wills, did you read how much Annie left -- £859 16s 8d that's quite a lot for back in 1941. Around £100,000 in today's terms but as Stephen was a stock brokers clerk probably a lot more from investment.

Darksecretz
09-01-14, 14:41
Talking of wills, did you read how much Annie left -- £859 16s 8d that's quite a lot for back in 1941. Around £100,000 in today's terms but as Stephen was a stock brokers clerk probably a lot more from investment.

yep.. seems odd though that Charles predeceased her but I didn't see a will, which I would have expected as he was a shopkeeper wasn't he?

stevefraseruk
09-01-14, 14:47
According to records he ran a confectionery shop at 259 Putney Bridge Road. I have them at that address until 1932.

Strangely Vincent his son was still down on register a year later

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=1795&iid=40020_190713-00324&fn=Martha&ln=Harding&st=r&ssrc=pt_t13919572_p18318023_kpidz0q3d18318023z0q26 pgz0q3d32768z0q26pgplz0q3dpid&pid=23253397

Darksecretz
09-01-14, 15:00
According to records he ran a confectionery shop at 259 Putney Bridge Road. I have them at that address until 1932.

Strangely Vincent his son was still down on register a year later

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=1795&iid=40020_190713-00324&fn=Martha&ln=Harding&st=r&ssrc=pt_t13919572_p18318023_kpidz0q3d18318023z0q26 pgz0q3d32768z0q26pgplz0q3dpid&pid=23253397


didn't you say that he died in Notts [wonder why he moved?] I live in Nottinghamshire so its a good place to be ....lol

stevefraseruk
09-01-14, 15:13
He got married to Cynthia Coughin aged 26 in Nottingham in 1947, according to my records he was 56 at the time, large age gap .... but obviously good reason to move to Nottingham

Darksecretz
09-01-14, 16:02
He got married to Cynthia Coughin aged 26 in Nottingham in 1947, according to my records he was 56 at the time, large age gap .... but obviously good reason to move to Nottingham

oh yes definitely! any idea where he is buried/cremated? [or which church they married in?]

stevefraseruk
09-01-14, 16:14
Just have this marriage to link them

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=8753&iid=ons_m19472AO-0542&fn=Vincent+R&ln=Fraser&st=r&ssrc=pt_t13919572_p18318023_kpidz0q3d18318023z0q26 pgz0q3d32768z0q26pgplz0q3dpid&pid=67948161

and two children that tie up with grandmothers address book,

G F

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8782&iid=ons_b19484az-0452&fn=Graham+V&ln=Fraser&st=r&ssrc=pt_t13919572_p5083719641_kpidz0q3d5083719641z 0q26pgz0q3d32768z0q26pgplz0q3dpid&pid=21795815


M F

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8782&iid=ons_b19522az-0441&fn=Madelaine+C&ln=Fraser&st=r&ssrc=pt_t13919572_p5083720282_kpidz0q3d5083720282z 0q26pgz0q3d32768z0q26pgplz0q3dpid&pid=82266222

NB: Steve I have removed the names as they could still be [or relatives of them] alive if you know for a fact that they are deceased then we can re-instate. [sorry]

stevefraseruk
09-01-14, 16:31
NB: Steve I have removed the names as they could still be [or relatives of them] alive if you know for a fact that they are deceased then we can re-instate. [sorry][/QUOTE]

No problem wasn't thinking - addled brain here sorry.....lol

Darksecretz
09-01-14, 16:46
NB: Steve I have removed the names as they could still be [or relatives of them] alive if you know for a fact that they are deceased then we can re-instate. [sorry]

No problem wasn't thinking - addled brain here sorry.....lol

thats ok :)