I'm a new member with a conundrum, any advice welcome

[Kathcoltman]

Researching my gx3 grandmother Lucy Swain (nee ?) I have found her husband william swain b Coventry about 1800, all her children, (her first child was born in Leek Staffs Harriet 1821)) her death (January 1836 in Astbury Cheshire which in turn give her birth 1801). I know the church she was buried St. Peter's Congleton but can't find the grave nor can the parish help me or friends of cheshire. I've even visited the church all to no avail. I've paid for a search in the Chester records office they only had the burial register with no grave plot number. I've searched GR, Ancestry, IGI, been to warwick records office in case they married there, been to Hanley Stoke on Trent to check records as they may have been married in leek but still can't find out her maiden name, nothing. I've looked on some strange cheshire project site and every other site I can think of. Does any one have any idea how I can bring this frustrating search to. Successful conclusion or am I on a fools errand

kathcoltman

[SmallTownGirl]

Hi Kath and welcome to the forum.

I've had a quick look, but nothing comes up - surprise, surprise. However, it's possible that the relevant marriage record just hasn't been indexed yet and one day it will appear, as if by magic. [optimists r us]

STG

[Kathcoltman]

Thanks for the optimism. I won't give in .......

[Elaine ..Spain]

Welcome to the forum Kath. I've had a look as well but like STG, can't see anything either.

[Janet in Yorkshire]

With regards to the grave, has anyone been able to tell you when the burial plan of the relevant graveyard/cemetery was first drawn up?
The one for our village church was only begun in the early 1900's, when a new planned extension was to be opened. Existing known graves in the older part of the churchyard were marked on the plan, but this only applied to those where there were gravestones still standing. From the inception of the plan, the locations of all graves after that date have been recorded.
So, from the plan, I can find out roughly where one pair of my great-grandparents were buried in unmarked graves in the 1920's, and also where another pair were buried in 1903 & 1928 because they had a gravestone. What I am NOT able to find out is where previous generations of both families were buried. I know from the burial register WHEN they were buried and that it was in the village churchyard, but there was no record made at the time of precisely WHERE.
I'm sure council/privately owned cemeteries most likely recorded precise grave locations from the beginning, but I think it was a much later development at most churches.

For the marriage, I suggest you can only keep on looking. Try and keep a record of where you HAVE looked for elimination purposes; keep an eye out for new online records which are being added all the time.

Jay

[Kathcoltman]

Thanks Jay. The church still had its Georgia graveyard intact. There is no grave plan in existance. The mi of te churc has been checked and there is no Lucy swain. I've scoured the graves even clearing a substantial number of moss! The parish administrator can't help nor the family history society of cheshire who have checked mi for other churches as well. I'm at a loss. It's just a brick wall. I should keep a record as you suggest as I do find I'm checking the sae things

[Olde Crone Holden]

I have a number of Swain families in my tree. They all originate in Cheshire, although some moved away.

I can tell you that the surname is misspelled/mistranscribed surprisingly often, including SUIN and even LUIN, lol. Also, Lucy is a name in the area which often becomes Lois later in life, not quite sure why...

OC

[clematised]

Familysearch gives two records for her with two burial places but not sure if they are any help
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/N4YX-XMF Astbury

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/N4V9-R2P Congleton, residence Buglawton

Edna

[Kathcoltman]

Edna, thanks , I've had the register checked and Chester records office tell me she is definitely buried in congleton. I've been to that church etc aaarrrggghhhh

[clematised]

I don't suppose that Find a Grave website would have anything

Edna

[Kathcoltman]

Edna sadly they don't but any more suggestions are very welcome indeed. Kath

[Olde Crone Holden]

Harriet appears to have been born in Coventry in 1822.

Where is William Swain buried? Why isn't he buried with his wife? (Or is he?). Why do you need to find her grave?

OC

[Janet in Yorkshire]

Harriet appears to have been born in Coventry in 1822.

Where is William Swain buried? Why isn't he buried with his wife? (Or is he?). Why do you need to find her grave?

OC

You would be extremely lucky to find either a burial record or a gravestone inscription (from this era) which stated the maiden name of a married woman, unless she was someone "of quality."
An 1800's church burial register is what it says - a list of people buried in that churchyard. Sometimes it gives an abode (e.g "of York") which indicates the place of burial is not the current residence of the deceased, but perhaps where their late spouse/child/parent was buried, or where s/he used to live.
Whilst a burial register entry would mean that that deceased was interred in the burial ground used by that church, this doesn't always apply to a monumental inscription. I have come across several instances of names being added to an existing gravestone, or of a commemorative stone being erected in a churchyard (perhaps in the home place of parents) although the deceased wasn't actually buried there. (i.e there was no corresponding burial recorded in the parish register.)

Jay

[Kathcoltman]

OC
I have Harriet b in Leek in 1821 and then Hannah in Coventry in 1822. Can you direct me to what you've seen please as this may help me? It would certainly explain Hannah being b in Coventry before they moved to Leek rather than go to leek have a child go back to Coventry (where William was born) have a child then go back to Leek without the second child. I then have other children b in Leek and Bosley/Congleton area. I was trying to find the grave to see if there was any info that would give me information about Lucy eg maiden name (which I'm trying to find) and thought she could be buried with parents or a sister or there might be some MI to give me a clue as to who she is. I don't know where William is buried butI have his tree going back now to 1530s so didn't think to look for his grave but perhaps that might tell me something. Thanks for the tip
Kath

[SmallTownGirl]

I know it's a bit obvious - so I'm sure you've already tried this - but do any of the children have a middle name that could be Lucy's maiden name?

OR, did any of William and Lucy's children give their child a name that could be Lucy's maiden name?

Just a thort

[Olde Crone Holden]

Arrrgh, apologies Kath, it is Hannah of course who was born in 1822, not Harriet.

Do you have William in 1841 with his children? My thinking is that he (William) went to Cheshire to be near family - his or Lucy's. It might be worth a good hard look at the neighbours. My gut feeling is that Lucy was from Congleton area.

I agree with Janet. It is extremely unlikely that a MI exists for Lucy (the church would have known if it did) and even if it did, unlikely to give any clues about her maiden name. The only time I have seen this information given is in noncon burials (Jane Bloggs, wife of Fred, daughter of Sam Brown).

I also agree with Janet that MIs can be very misleading - I missed a vital clue for 25 years because I ASSUMED the man was buried where the MI was - no he wasn't, he was actually buried miles away with his wife and children - I hadn't known they existed!

OC

[Uncle John]

I also agree with Janet that MIs can be very misleading - I missed a vital clue for 25 years because I ASSUMED the man was buried where the MI was - no he wasn't, he was actually buried miles away with his wife and children - I hadn't known they existed!

The MI for a Church of Scotland minister in my tree lists his entire family, who actually died all over the world.

[SmallTownGirl]

> Do you have William in 1841 with his children?

I think this is it

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8978/CHSHO107_118_119-0221/178331?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fnew%3d1%26gsfn%3dwilliam%26gsln%3dswain%26rank%3d1%26gss%3dangs-g%26mswpn__ftp%3dAstbury%252c%2bCheshire%252c%2bEngland%26mswpn%3d82392%26mswpn_PInfo%3d8-%257c0%257c0%257c3257%257c3251%257c0%257c0%257c0%257c5257%257c82392%257c0%257c%26msbdy%3d1805%26sbo%3d1%26pcat%3dROOT_CATEGORY%26h%3d178331%26recoff%3d6%2b7%26db%3duki1841%26indiv%3d1%26ml_rpos%3d1&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord

For those without Ancestry, it shows them in Buglawton, Astbury, Ches:
William 40, ribbon weaver
Harriet 20
Jane 18
Maria 15
Mary 14
Eliza 12
William 10
James 8
All NOT born in county except young James.

By 1851 William has re-married and he's a grocer. He's still in Buglawton and sons William and James are still at home. Says William jnr was b in Leek, Staffs and James in Botley, Ches.

[Olde Crone Holden]

Thanks STG. I found James' baptism and it only gives mother's name as Lucy.

this is a rank outsider, but as I don't have access to census, I cannot rule it out - perhaps someone would like to play with it, lol.

William Swain to LOUISA Griffis 22 Jan 1827 St Philip Birmingham.

I know the marriage year is a bit late - but I cannot see any children baptised to this couple. Can anyone see them on the 1841 and rule them out?

OC

[Chrissie Smiff]

Hi Kath and welcome to FTF
I have found this on Ancestry but not sure exactly how to interpret it. It doesn't mention a Lucy but I just thought that if it was a possibility then it might be possible to find out more from the Codsall records? -

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?rank=1&gsfn=William&gsln=Swain&=&_82004010=&rg_81004011__date=&rs_81004011__date=0&_82004020=Staffordshire&rg_81004021__date=1820&rs_81004021__date=1&_82004030=&rg_81004031__date=&rs_81004031__date=0&gskw=&prox=1&ti=5538&ti.si=0&gss=angs-c&pcat=EPR&h=128044&recoff=10+14+15&db=epr_Staffordshire&indiv=1&ml_rpos=1

This is the one that OC mentioned to a Louisa -

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/4994/40458_316904-00333/2060309?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3frank%3d1%26gsfn%3dWilliam%26gsln%3dSwain%26_82004010%3d%26rg_81004011__date%3d%26rs_81004011__date%3d0%26_82004020%3dStaffordshire%26rg_81004021__date%3d1820%26rs_81004021__date%3d1%26_82004030%3d%26rg_81004031__date%3d%26rs_81004031__date%3d0%26gskw%3d%26prox%3d1%26ti%3d5538%26ti.si%3d0%26gss%3dangs-c%26pcat%3dEPR%26h%3d2060309%26recoff%3d9%2b10%26db%3dBirminghamParishMarriage%26indiv%3d1%26ml_rpos%3d41&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord