Huge relationship problem

[bev&kev]

This is driving me crazy, or else I'm going crazy!

The Will (original - in English, easy to read) of Elizabeth Carew who died in 1681 names:

Her father (deceased) as Francis Throckmorton Carew - that is correct

Her uncle as Edward Thurland plus wife Frances (so Edward is presumably the blood relative)
Her grandfather Sir Edward Thurland (father of above)
Her aunt as Elizabeth Scott (married name)
Cousins of both families are also mentioned.
She also names half-brothers surnamed Russell

So ........... am I right in assuming that Elizabeth's mother's maiden name must have been Thurland?
And ......... Elizabeth Scott's maiden name must have been either Thurland or Carew?

But they aren't!

I am 99.999% certain that Elizabeth's mother was Susan Romney, with no previous marriages and though she lived for 10 years after her husband's death, she would have been about 40 at the time and I haven't a clue where the Russells come from.

I am even more certain that Elizabeth Scott's maiden name was Elizabeth Cherry/Cherrie and she had no previous marriages.

Am I missing something really stupid and obvious??
This is really, really important!

[kylejustin]

i guess it depends how you arrive at elizabeth carew being your relly? they sound like nobility, or landed gentry. are there no pedigrees to go by? have you got the relationships correct from your work?

[Caroline]

Have you got them from a transcription of a copy of the will? Once I worked out which family and that they were from Surrey, I've found the abstract - Surrey & South London Will Abstracts 1470-1856 on orgins.net and noticed that she also mentions another aunt, Mary Cooke if that helps.Maybe they used Throckmorton alone as their surname sometimes?

According to http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/THROCKMORTON1.htm Francis only married the once.

I can't help much more but have had fun reading about them all. :D

I just found this site which seems to think that Elizabeth d. of Susan Romney and Francis died in 1647:

http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I66181&tree=EuropeRoyalNobleHous

P.S. Not sure I have helped but will keep digging ....

[Olde Crone Holden]

You do need to remember that at that time, relationships were affected by marriage, so a brother or sister or uncle! could be a relative BY MARRIAGE, not necessarily by blood.

OC

[bev&kev]

I know, I know OC but I have investigated every in-law, sibling, aunt, uncle and third cousin twice removed from her Great grandparents downwards and I can find no marital or family connection with either the Thurlands or the Scotts. (Ok, there are a couple of very convoluted and very distant marital connections in other generations with the Scotts, but nothing remotely close to calling Elizabeth Scott "aunt"). I have been at this for weeks! I am ripping my hair out with frustration.

kylejustin: It's the Elizabeth Scott that is my ancestor - if, IF, this Carew family do turn out to be related, it would punch a decent sized hole in a very big and very long-standing brick wall, but even though the will says this is the case, I'm not comfortable with it because I just can't find the bleep-bleep evidence for myself!!

Caroline: The will is the original, so there are no mistakes over transcript or handwriting and it is perfectly legible.

[Caroline]

Caroline: The will is the original, so there are no mistakes over transcript or handwriting and it is perfectly legible.

Not sure that I suggested otherwise. My couple of hours googling for them all threw up many sites with much contradictory information so I gave up.

[kylejustin]

that's what happens when you investigate the upper classes. they move around a bit, and you have no idea where you should be looking. have you got access to the parish registers you need? did these other relatives ie the carew's and thurland's leave wills?

[kylejustin]

it doesn't matter how distant some people are related either, they can be mentioned in wills. i have one will from the 1840's which mentions just about every living relative. and this included grand nephews and nieces and grandchildren of first cousins. gentry wills can be gold mines that way.

[bev&kev]

Sorry Caroline I didn't intend to imply that you had! I know that Google has Carews coming at you from all directions, there are a whole tribe of them, and virtually every generation bears the same set of names: Nicholas, Francis, Elizabeth etc etc, but, there is only one line of Throckmorton Carews, which helps a bit, though just to be awkward, they didn't always use the Throckmorton name in documents. The family seat was Beddington, this lot were "of Reigate". I have been googling forever, or so it feels, and have just ended up more confused. Thanks so much for looking anyway. (Mary Cooke is another I cannot track down).

[annswabey]

There are these Wills, available for download at the National Archives. Perhaps they might shed more light?!

Will of Sir Edward Thurland, Sergeant at Law of Reigate, Surrey

Prerogative Court of Canterbury and related Probate Jurisdictions: Will Registers. Will of Sir Edward Thurland, Sergeant at Law of Reigate, Surrey.

Collection: Records of the Prerogative Court of Canterbury
Date range: 08 February 1683 - 08 February 1683
Reference:PROB 11/372/192
Subjects:Wills and probate

Will of Edward Thurland of Reigate, Surrey

Prerogative Court of Canterbury and related Probate Jurisdictions: Will Registers. Will of Edward Thurland of Reigate, Surrey.

Collection: Records of the Prerogative Court of Canterbury
Date range: 08 October 1687 - 08 October 1687
Reference:PROB 11/388/371
Subjects:Wills and probate

[Caroline]

After seeing Ann's post, I had another look in Origins:

In the will of Susanna Carew sp. 19 Feb 1686/7 daughter of Nicholas Carew she names her brother as Edward Thurland and also "my father in law Edward Thurland, knight" and " rest of £100 due to me by will of my niece Elizabeth Carew, deceased" and "my nieces and nephews Mary Thurland, Ann Thurland, Thomas Thurland and Richard Thurland" and also mentions Phillipa Booker, widow to my nephew Edward Thurland.

If you have lots more Surrey people, a sub to Origins could be very useful. I will dispatch a PM to you.

I wonder if Edward is Susanna's stepfather?

[bev&kev]

Oooh thank you so much for that Caroline, that is very useful info!!!

Annswabey - I've looked at some Thurland wills. Trouble is, Elizabeth Carew, despite dying relatively young, outlived all her siblings; only one of which survived to have children, and she outlived her only nephew and also her great nephew. So Thurland wills do not seem to mention Carews. But I still have a few Thurland wills to find.

PS OMG, I've just sold my house, whooo hoooooo!!!!