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  • Question about informal adoption

    Hi

    If someone had been unofficially adopted during the 1940's but there was no official paperwork to go with it, would any subsequent marriage in the 1960's or 1970's been registered under their original name? Rather than that of their adoptive parents?

    Actually, did you need to produce a birth certificate to get married if you were over 21?

    Thanks all

  • #2
    Anyone can get married using any surname they wish. There is no such thing in the UK as a "legal" surname. Your surname is simply the name other people know you by.

    I have been married twice and was never asked to produce a birth cert. As I was under age though, I did have to have my father's permission for my first marriage. My father being the man who brought me up and had parental responsibility for me. In my case, that was my real father but in many other cases that would have been a stepfather etc. No one cared!

    OC

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    • #3
      Thanks for this. I've been wondering what surnames to look under and this does make it clearer.

      I got married in the 1990's, aged 27, in Qld and I had to get a birth cert to get married. And I'd never had one before because you didn't need one then to go to uni or get a driver's licence or anything. Not like now when you need one for everything! Mine was straightforward - real mum and real dad and all in the one town basically.

      Going back to when my parents got married, they both needed birth certs too and my mum needed her parents' permission. My dad was 21 and my mum thought she was turning 17 the day before the wedding - got her birth cert and it turned out she was only turning 16! Don't ask me what sort of adding up my grandparents had been doing and she was their 6th child. My parents have been married 53 years now and at least my late sister and I knew our right ages.

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      • #4
        australia is more strict about everything involving identity than england is. apparently this is why identity theft is rife in the UK and not in australia.

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        • #5
          Australia is very strict and getting stricter all the time. My youngest who's 16 went for his learners recently and needed so much id to prove he was 16 that you wonder how anyone gets away with not proving their identity these days. ;)

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          • #6
            Things are very different NOW in the UK, changed about 20 years ago when the big panic started about identity theft.

            I have recently had to prove who I am in order to change my driving licence from paper to photo. I had to jump through hoops of fire, including providing original divorce papers from my first divorce in 1972, long before I had a driving licence!

            OC

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            • #7
              You have me worried now OC. I have got to re apply for my driving licence before December as I shall be 70 and I also only have a paper licence which will have to now be a photo one. It sounds as though you are having to supply your birth certificate. Reading the blurb I was under the impression that I only had to prove who I was with a choice of things (I haven't got a current passport). I disregarded the birth cert option as it would have meant supplying 2 marriage and one set of divorce papers etc that I don't have. So I was going for the option of proving that I am a pensioner.
              From your post, do I take it that you still need to supply your birth cert (along with any marriage/divorce papers) as well as another form of proof?
              Chrissie passed away in January 2020.

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              • #8
                Chrissie

                My passport is out of date, but only just, and the photo is recognisably me....but they would not accept it as proof of my identity.

                I had to supply
                Birth Cert (full one)
                First marriage cert
                First divorce decree absolute (absolute stroke of luck I still had it!)
                Second marriage cert
                Second decree absolute
                Two photos, supposed to be countersigned by a professional who knew me......my GP wouldn't know me if he fell over me in the street, I never go to the doctor.

                I got around all this impasse in the end by going to the main post office and paying (£4?) for the clerk to check my application - she countersigned the photos to say they looked like me, lol - the same photos which had been rejected earlier in the day at the DVLA office. She sent it all off and I got my photo licence!

                Felix - apologies for going off topic!

                OC

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                • #9
                  Thank you OC and yes Felix - sorry for going off topic.
                  Chrissie passed away in January 2020.

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                  • #10
                    Oh no OC and Chrissie, off-topic is always interesting. And frequently useful :o
                    Last edited by Felix; 19-09-13, 23:02.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by kylejustin View Post
                      australia is more strict about everything involving identity than england is. apparently this is why identity theft is rife in the UK and not in australia.
                      Actually there is very little identity theft in the UK.
                      There is plenty of hype about ID theft and various types of frauds bundled under the general banner of ID theft but little actual ID theft.

                      If a person steals a credit card and tries to use it that is classed as ID theft. It is however nothing of the kind it is simply fraud.
                      If a person shows a stolen driving licence (pre-photo card) to a police office when stopped driving a vehicle. That is listed as ID theft. Again it is not it is simply fraudulent use of a driving licence.

                      Those people are not taking the identity of the subject but simply trying to use a stolen item to pay a bill or escape a fine.

                      When will the paranoid people realise that ID theft is a very rare crime? Yes it does happen, it has always happened and always will happen but it is very rare.

                      Most instances of so called ID theft are perpetuated by a family member or close friend, not by a stranger.
                      Cheers
                      Guy
                      Last edited by Guy; 20-09-13, 07:55.
                      Guy passed away October 2022

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Guy View Post
                        Actually there is very little identity theft in the UK.
                        There is plenty of hype about ID theft and various types of frauds bundled under the general banner of ID theft but little actual ID theft.

                        If a person steals a credit card and tries to use it that is classed as ID theft. It is however nothing of the kind it is simply fraud.
                        If a person shows a stolen driving licence (pre-photo card) to a police office when stopped driving a vehicle. That is listed as ID theft. Again it is not it is simply fraudulent use of a driving licence.

                        Those people are not taking the identity of the subject but simply trying to use a stolen item to pay a bill or escape a fine.

                        When will the paranoid people realise that ID theft is a very rare crime? Yes it does happen, it has always happened and always will happen but it is very rare.

                        Most instances of so called ID theft are perpetuated by a family member or close friend, not by a stranger.
                        Cheers
                        Guy
                        I agree and the sales of shredders are premised on the idea that someone goes into your bin and takes a utility bill to steal your identity. I saw one case reported in the press from a London address yet pensioners and the like who live around me in a small rural village are anxious and worried about this happening to them - ridiculous!

                        A case I knew of that was identity theft was committed by a tenant in a property when the landlord foolishly left personal papers in the loft which were then used by the tenant to gain goods and money as if he were the landlord - all confirmed by the fact that he was living at the correct address!

                        Most unusual set of circumstances though and as you say Guy someone who although a 'stranger' was in a setting that was similar to close family with access to private documents.

                        Margaret

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                        • #13
                          I agree with Guy and Margaret.

                          I have always felt that this is just another way to get everyone onto some sort of official nosey parker list - or possibly, just a way to personally annoy me!

                          I am sure identity theft does go on, but it is perpetrated by professional criminals. How you stop that by harrassing a little old lady in Cornwall (me) I fail to see.

                          OC

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                          • #14
                            As Felix has been kind enough to say that he doesn't mind, I thought I would just pop back in case anyone else reading this needs to change/renew their licence at 70, as it is much easier than it was for OC, who was just changing from paper to photo.

                            I have just been on the phone to the DVLA and the only proof of who I am and my National Insurance number etc is the state pension form BR 2103 which we get each year informing us of our next years pension. No birth cert needed. They have also now relaxed the rule about who can sign the photo and the form which the DVLA send. They don't have to be in a profession or anything similar or even have known you for 2 years or more. It can be ANYONE who knows you and doesn't live in the same house.
                            Chrissie passed away in January 2020.

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                            • #15
                              My husbands grandmother was, as far as we can find out, 'informally' adopted. Her marriage certificate reads her surname as Holland OR Mussared! I have been a researcher for many years and have never come across this actually shown on a certificate before!

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                              • #16
                                Thanks

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                                • #17
                                  Yesterday

                                  I have pm-ed you regarding the surname Mussared.

                                  I have seen one or two certificaes which state "Smith otherwise Brown" etc but not sure that was indicative of informal adoption, just that the person was known by either of two surnames depending on who was asking.

                                  OC

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                                  • #18
                                    yes, but ID theft in the normal sense is quite easy in the UK, as your bmd indexes are public up till 2005. so therefore anyone can find the birth record for a child who died young and use that identity. in australia all birth records are sealed for 100 years-which means they don't show in public indexes regardless if the person is deceased.....though you can still obtain a birth record if you can prove they are dead, or you have written permission from them, plus their and your identity documents.

                                    to prove your identity here, you need 1 thing from 3 categories: photo id (license, passport), something with your address (usually a bill from within the last 3 months) and your birth cert. something tells me it's not so strict in the UK.

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                                    • #19
                                      Olde Crone Holden,

                                      Sorry, I should have said in the beginning, my husbands grandma told his Mum that she was adopted but I have been unable to find any official record of an adoption.

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                                      • #20
                                        kyle

                                        It's not so easy now. Officially, the GRO will not issue a birth cert for someone under 50 years old unless you can prove kinship, although lots do slip through, due to confusion about the legislation.

                                        I was acting as executor for my late friend and I had the official SEALED permission for probate, which is sufficient for every institution in the land (you have to prove ID to be granted probate). Most institutions accepted this document but one building society did not and made me produce every piece of paper I possessed to prove my ID. This was for the measly sum of £4k, which was not coming to me, but going to the beneficiary named in the Will.

                                        Incidentally, in the UK, a birth certificate is NOT legally proof of ID, it says so on the bottom of the certificate, so really, "they" are wasting their time asking for it.

                                        OC

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