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**Darksecretz** · 18-09-13, 19:47

I can see plenty of George WINWOODs but not much for WINWARD.. would electoral rolls help Jay?

**Janet in Yorkshire** · 18-09-13, 21:22

Thanks for looking Julie.
It's 1871/1872 so ERs wouldn't help.

Jay

**vera2013** · 19-09-13, 03:12

Did look Janet. Could not see a death or census record. Checked the colliery records for pit accidents/deaths in the NE but nothing showing there.

Is there a military connection? George born Chatham and sister born East Indies. Wonder if he joined the military and subsequently died.

Vera

**Darksecretz** · 19-09-13, 06:42

I also notice that there are a lot of Winwards in Lancashire, [not that it helps you, mind!!]

**Janet in Yorkshire** · 19-09-13, 08:39

Thanks again, Julie and also Vera.
It's a while since I first researched Rosannah, so I may not have remembered this correctly, but I think George's father had served in the forces, hence the birth places.

I'm fairly confident that the two marriages were for the same Rosanna, especially now it seems that she and second husband crossed the pond. (It looks likely that they went pre 1880, with Rosanna's brother, her sister & family, & sister's brother-in-law following in about 1882, and another sister & family & sister's sister-in -law and family following within a couple of years. They all settled in the Pennsylvania coal mines with some then moving onto the Cleveland shipyards, transferring their NE work skills.)
Perhaps the marriage with George didn't work out and she went back to her mother & siblings, or George's death wasn't recorded for some reason. It doesn't make a lot of difference to my research - it's Rosanna's sister's husband & siblings who are my direct relatives. so it was more a matter of tying up a loose end.

Jay

Jay

**Darksecretz** · 19-09-13, 09:20

I know what you mean though Jay, sometimes it just 'niggles' that you can't find that death/burial, [I know it does me!] it does look like that marriage didn't last very long though, maybe the death never made it to the GRO for some reason? I would think that during that time that there would not be many municipal cemeteries, so maybe a look at the churchyards would be an option? [I know you aren't connected directly to him, but it would bug the heck out of me...lol]

**Darksecretz** · 19-09-13, 09:25

there is a George WINWOOD burial in 1928 aged 75, at Shincliffe, Co. Durham in the NBI. but, nothing else that is even remotely like it.

**Janet in Yorkshire** · 19-09-13, 11:59

Thanks for that Julie. I'll have to try tracking backwards from that burial to see what transpires.
Due to the Geordie accent and lack of literacy skills, the surname could easily have morphed over the years.

Jay

ETA - have just traced that George Winwood back through the census returns. He consistently gave his pob as Suffolk and I've found him in 1871 in Chester le Street registration district - not the same George:(

**Darksecretz** · 19-09-13, 12:34

Originally posted by Janet in Yorkshire View Post

Thanks for that Julie. I'll have to try tracking backwards from that burial to see what transpires.
Due to the Geordie accent and lack of literacy skills, the surname could easily have morphed over the years.

Jay

ETA - have just traced that George Winwood back through the census returns. He consistently gave his pob as Suffolk and I've found him in 1871 in Chester le Street registration district - not the same George:(

poooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooop! ah well, back to the chalk board!.. wonder if he was in a workhouse/asylum? but then again, Rosanna still shouldn't have been able to marry so soon, should she?

**vera2013** · 19-09-13, 15:48

Janet I noticed that on Newcastle City BMD, Rosannah and Robert married in the Cathedral of St Nicholas. I doubt she would have the front to do that if George was still alive. Do you have his baptism from FMP at his father's parish Lackford, Suffolk. Wonder if there could be a name change.

Vera

**Janet in Yorkshire** · 19-09-13, 18:51

Thank you for that, Vera - I suspect the 2 different George's I've found in 1871 were cousins., because of the Lackford connection. There could well have been a name change, although I think I found a June 1870 newspaper article about Rosannah's f/in/law (someone staying at his pub had stolen a watch & money) and his name was written as William Winward.

Yes, I'd noticed the Robert & Rosannah marriage was at the Cathedral and thought "surely not bigamy, she wouldn't dare ....." but on the other hand I think the Careys (of Irish stock) were Roman Catholics - so in the eyes of her church, marriage in the Cathedral perhaps wouldn't have been considered valid anyway. The daughter's bp which I found on family search was at Morpeth St Robert (an RC church I think) and Rosannah Carlyle eventually had a Roman Catholic funeral mass in Ohio.

Jay

**Elaine** · 19-09-13, 19:00

You could order the first certificate using the family search photo duplication service, there is a thread on here about it, here's the link for ordering

https://lds.qualtrics.com/SE/?SID=SV_9tdS7lqbTCW30kR

**Janet in Yorkshire** · 19-09-13, 21:41

Sorry Elaine, I'm confused - did you mean I should order the image for the Rosannah Carey & George Winward marriage from familysearch?

I'm not sure that having a copy of the cert for either marriage would help. She could have declared herself to be a widow when marrying Robert (she used George's surname rather than her birth name) but that in itself wouldn't be proof that George was dead ?????

Jay

**Darksecretz** · 19-09-13, 21:59

Originally posted by Janet in Yorkshire View Post

Sorry Elaine, I'm confused - did you mean I should order the image for the Rosannah Carey & George Winward marriage from familysearch?

I'm not sure that having a copy of the cert for either marriage would help. She could have declared herself to be a widow when marrying Robert (she used George's surname rather than her birth name) but that in itself wouldn't be proof that George was dead ?????

Jay

no, but, would she lie to the vicar about her husband being dead when he wasn't?? [its like lying to God] I am pretty sure that you can now order copies of items that the LDS have filmed [you are allowed 5 items per month I think it is] this is a free service, it just takes a few weeks.. am sure a few people have already used this service on here.. Jacky.. Tilly mint I think, and maybe Elaine Spain.. and possibly Kylejustin..

**Elaine** · 19-09-13, 22:00

I thought I would suggest it as it is a free service, I can't find anything else to help!
I thought about military too but all my searches were a dead end

**Elaine** · 19-09-13, 22:12

Had a set back in 5 days, all sent by email

**Janet in Yorkshire** · 19-09-13, 22:18

Thanks for pegging away at my problem Elaine

I can't find anything in the papers or in the criminal records for George.

The second marriage being at the cathedral still rings a bit "odd;" Rosanna's marriage to George was at St Joseph's church, Birtley. (RC.) Robert Carlisle, husband number 2, seems to have been willing for all 3 known daughters to have been brought up in the RC faith, so it seems out of kilter that the parents married in a C of E church, and what a church to choose. (I was bridesmaid at a marriage in Newcastle cathedral decades ago, so it stirred up a few memories!)

Jay

**Darksecretz** · 20-09-13, 10:01

just incase you haven't found the link for the LDS Jay,

its here: https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/...ation_Services

**Janet in Yorkshire** · 20-09-13, 11:57

Thanks, Julie.
I'm now going to pass this one over to my contact across the pond as the Carey family are her direct relatives, but only "married ins" to my family, albeit twice.
I'm really only digging up their skeletons as one of Rosannah's brothers abandoned his wife and children and probably cleared off to the US. The wife left behind eventually set up home with my great-uncle and they had children, but never married. I've always assumed this was because she probably still had a living husband. In order to find out more about the errant husband I've tried chasing up all his siblings - 2 are still hiding but all the rest went to the US.
Thanks for your efforts on my behalf.

Jay

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