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  • Help with James Killick

    I am helping my sister in laws partner with his family tree. James Killick married Caroline Holman 8th April 1844 St Marys church Reigate (Source copy of the marriage cert c/o family tree on ancestry). James’ father is recorded as Edward Fuller Gunsmith, which makes me think that this was James’ step father rather than father. I have tried in vain to find a marriage of a Fuller/Killick combination to try and establish who James’ mother may be but not managing to come up with anything. Likewise I have searched the census returns looking for an Edward Fuller Gunsmith without any success. James age is recorded as full however, reference to census returns puts his birth year at 1819 – place of birth Kingswood Surrey. I cannot establish a possible christening record/parents for him about this time. Any help in getting James’ ancestry back further than 1819 with family members would be gratefully received.

  • #2
    Here's the marriage record on ancestry http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?h...=&pid=10077508

    Margaret

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    • #3
      Here he is in 1851 http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?h...c=&pid=1251088 with YOB at 1822 and place Betchworth, Surrey.

      Margaret

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      • #4
        Have found this baptism to match birth 1851


        Surrey, England, Baptisms, 1813-1912
        Caroline Holman
        Baptism Date: 15 Jun 1823
        Archive Provided Parish: Buckland, St Mary
        Parish as it Appears: Buckland
        Father: Thomas Holman OCC Labourer
        Mother: Phillis Holman

        is that her sister Maria marrying April 7th father Thomas but spelling is Holeman?...James Killick witness
        Last edited by Elaine; 08-09-13, 22:58.
        Elaine

        Looking for Ward, Moore, Hunt, Warren...and who was Gertrude Wills

        http://leicestermoores.tribalpages.com
        http://wardnottsleics.tribalpages.com

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        • #5
          Sorry got carried away with the wrong James, you probably have this record already!
          Elaine

          Looking for Ward, Moore, Hunt, Warren...and who was Gertrude Wills

          http://leicestermoores.tribalpages.com
          http://wardnottsleics.tribalpages.com

          Comment


          • #6
            There is a tree on Ancestry that has James Killick born 1817 with father Edward Fuller b 1795 Dorking, mother unknown. That Edward Fuller is living with an Ann Jones (widow) whom he later marries (1863) from 1941 to his death in 1877. At the time of the marriage to Ann Jones (nee Capon) he is recorded as a bachelor.

            From 1841 to 1871 his occupation is recorded as whitesmith and bell hanger.

            Unfortunately no baptism for James and I cannot find anything so far.

            Vera

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            • #7
              gunsmith and whitesmith seem to be occupations that go together, maybe it is the same edward fuller?

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              • #8
                Many thanks for all your help.

                Margaret your finding consolidated the information which I had found.

                Elaine, I have just realised that Maria and Caroline Holman married on the 7th and 8th of April 1844. Maria's husband Thomas Norman was a witness at Caroline and James' marriage and James was a witness for his sister in law Caroline and Thomas Norman.

                Vera - your findings are interesting. However, with out a definite link to James' it may be a case of trying to investigate this line of thought.

                Kyle, You could be correct with your theory.

                Sandra
                Last edited by Sherbertrose; 09-09-13, 09:29.

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                • #9
                  James Killick, son of Edward Fuller & unknown Killick female

                  I am descended from James Killick, he being my 3rd great grandfather. James' marriage record to Caroline Holman shows his father to be Edward Fuller, gunsmith. I have been told by a very experienced researcher in England that James would not have been allowed to put Edward Fuller's name on his marriage record as father, unless Edward Fuller recognized him as his son. I believe that James was likely illegitimate, Edward Fuller being his father, and a Killick female being his mother. I have not found any baptismal record for him at all, and I have looked high and low. He states in the census that he was born in Betchworth, Surrey. Ages on the census and other records vary, but James was born about 1817, about 1819 or about 1822. I have found an Edward Fuller b.c. 1794 Dorking, Surrey (baptized 11 March 1794 at Dorking, St. Martin), son of Samuel Fuller and Elizabeth Snape that seems to fit the bill for being the Edward Fuller James refers to on his marriage record. Edward Fuller's father, Samuel Fuller was an Ironmonger, Edward a whitesmith (someone who works with metal, often in a decorative way, i.e.. scrollwork on a gun, casting bells, etc.) so I believe I have the correct one. Edward was listed as a bachelor on his marriage to Amey (Capon) Jones in 1863. They had been together at least since the 1841 census of Dorking. I think that Amey and her husband William Jones must've split or she was widowed by 1841. Since they didn't marry until 1863 it makes me wonder if they were waiting for Mr. Jones to die though. Not sure. Amey was the daughter of Robert Capon, labourer, and wife Ann, b.c. 1801, baptized 19 July 1801 at Dorking, St. Martin. She married William Jones at St. Mary's, Lambeth, Surrey on 9 Mar 1824. In 1841, she is listed on the Dorking census first as Amey Jones and then Edward Fuller underneath her name. They must've had a common-law marriage for years before marrying officially. Edward is listed as a whitesmith. In 1851, Dorking, they are listed as Edward Fuller, bell hanger, and Amey Fuller, married. The 1861 census lists them as Edward Fuller bell hanger and Amey Fuller, dressmaker. They married 27 Sep 1863 at Dorking, St. Martin.

                  Edward was a bachelor until his marriage to Amey, so he wasn't a step father to James. The only conclusion I could come to was that he must be a father to an illegitimate James Killick. I have found no record of bastardy bond, but am told that if Edward legally acknowledged James as a son, there would be no bond record, he would just take care of him financially. The bond only takes place when someone is brought before the church in the community (who doesn't want to have to help support the mother/child), and then the church gets the law involved and a bond is invoked to insure that the child is recognized and cared for monetarily.

                  I have had my cousin Fred Kellick's YDNA taken on familytreedna.com and am hoping that some day some male Fuller from Edward Fuller's family line will take a YDNA test and we will know for sure or not if Edward Fuller then was James' biological father or not. And if not, maybe he'll match a male Killick and we would know then that James' father was a Killick male. But my bet is that his mother was a Killick. Is your sister in law's partner a Killick male, or does he have a different last name? Either way, he would be a cousin to me, right? Would love to hear from him. My email is parcher@umsl.edu.

                  Have much info on this line on my public tree on Ancestry: http://person.ancestry.com/tree/7519...73858570/facts

                  I descend from James and Caroline through their son Thomas Killick b. 1850 Kingswood, Surrey. Then through Thomas Killick and his wife Emmeline "Emily" Day through their son Thomas Killick b. 7 Mar 1885 Reigate, Surrey. Thomas Sr. died in 1889 and Emily could not take care of both of their boys, so she had to put Thomas into the Barnardos home for children. She signed the "Canadian Clause" as they made many mothers do that turned their children over to them. Thomas was boarded out by the home from age 4 until age 10 and then at 10 was brought back to London to prepare for immigration to Canada. They shipped him to Toronto in September 1895, placed him with a family in Ontario for almost 2 years, then brought him back to Toronto and shipped him out to Winnipeg, Manitoba and placed him on a farm out there to work. He ran away more than several times, and eventually joined a circus and made his way to Louisiana, U.S.A. Then headed north to Drew County, Arkansas where he met and married my Great Grandma Pearl Davis. They had one son, Frederick Kellick. Thomas abandoned them just before Fred turned 2. Just moved one county south of her and disappeared. She had heard that he jumped into the Mississippi River and killed himself. She eventually made her way to St. Louis, MO where she had family living and remained there. Thomas died in Ashley County, Arkansas in January 1929, just 3 days after he married his 3rd wife, "shot by parties unknown". Don't know what the story was with the killing, but from what I understand that area was a very rough place to live, almost like the Wild West. He married his 2nd wife (and yes, never got a divorce from poor Pearl) I guess in that same county although I can't find a record of it. She was way older than him and she died in Oct 1928. He then married a 15 year old girl in Jan 1929 and 3 days later was dead. Some life. Emily kept younger son Arthur Killick with her. She remarried to a Wallace Laurie Jordan, Sr. in 1891 and had 3 more children with him: Lillian P. Jordan b.c. 1892 (m. a Lambden?, and maybe a Ronald Stoneman first?); Florence May b.c. 1893(m. Charles Jackson); and Wallace Laurie Jordan Jr. b. 1897. Would love to know any more about the family than I do.

                  Patty (Jamerson) Archer

                  Originally posted by Sherbertrose View Post
                  I am helping my sister in laws partner with his family tree. James Killick married Caroline Holman 8th April 1844 St Marys church Reigate (Source copy of the marriage cert c/o family tree on ancestry). James’ father is recorded as Edward Fuller Gunsmith, which makes me think that this was James’ step father rather than father. I have tried in vain to find a marriage of a Fuller/Killick combination to try and establish who James’ mother may be but not managing to come up with anything. Likewise I have searched the census returns looking for an Edward Fuller Gunsmith without any success. James age is recorded as full however, reference to census returns puts his birth year at 1819 – place of birth Kingswood Surrey. I cannot establish a possible christening record/parents for him about this time. Any help in getting James’ ancestry back further than 1819 with family members would be gratefully received.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hello Patty and welcome to FTF.

                    Just a small correction - he could put the name of anyone as his father on his marriage certificate, didn't need anyone,s permission. I have quite a few marriage certificates where the father has been invented for the occasion, or is a stepfather, a grandfather, a brother or index a natural father. It is BIRTH certificates which need the permission and acknowledgement of the natural father.

                    Bastardy bonds have not all survived. If you cannot find one it doesn't mean there never was one. Sometimes a casual agreement was made to support the child and if the father was of good standing locally then it was left to the couple involved. Poor people were subjected to Bastardy orders, not Bonds and whenever possible a marriage was "encouraged" by the parish authorities.

                    After all that though - I agree that he was almost certainly illegitimate, but knew who his biological father was because his mother had told him!

                    OC

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