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  • Possible death at sea but cannot find it

    Hi All - Would be grateful for help on this:

    Frederick Rowland b31.10.1854 in Great Baddow, Essex - almost certainly grew up in the workhouse in Widford, Essex, with his older siblings, was a Sailor out of Great Yarmouth by 1871 age 17 - he was an Apprentice on a ship called "Ringleader" in Great Yarmouth.
    In 1875 he married Mary Ann Green at St. Nicholas Church, Great Yarmouth, Norfolk (Q4 1875 4b7) - Fred was 21. They had 3 children.
    Fred's parents were Frederick William Rowland b 1827 Great Baddow, Essex - d 1856 Middlesex and Eliza Anderson b 1828 Point Pleasant, Wandsworth, Surrey - d Q2 1860 Chelmsford, Essex..
    On the 1881 census age 27 Fred is Master of the vessel "Pirate" in Lowestoft Harbour for the night with a Crew of 5 so he was alive then (I used a website called Angelfire to get Crew etc of Pirate) I can find nothing else on him not even a death - he has ceased to exist.
    However he must have died because in 1887 his wife, Mary Ann married a Daniel Robert Beales in Gt. Yarmouth, Norfolk (Q1 1887 4b 10).
    I cannot find his death at all - does anyone know of a website (I have no memberships at present) that lists deaths at sea? I would be very grateful.

    Sue

    [?whilst typing this I notice it says at the bottom of the page - Tags: and that I can have 5. Sorry to be ignorant, don't laugh at me - but what does it mean?]
    Last edited by Sue1; 07-09-13, 21:28.

  • #2
    I don't think all deaths at sea, where there was no body, are recorded. In my OH's tree there are 3 men who were lost when Hull trawlers went down. (Two in 1895 and one in 1907). There are no death records for them but I found out what happened from local newspapers and a very helpful local website.
    Have you tried googling the name of the boat, or his name?
    Anne

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    • #3
      There's this record
      ROWLAND, Frederick
      Vessel : Mary Ann Matilda
      Country: At sea Year: 1881 Page: 220 Age at death: 28
      Record source: GRO Marine Death Indices (1846 to 1902)

      Margaret
      Last edited by margaretmarch; 07-09-13, 23:17.

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      • #4
        Oh, well done Margaret! Where did you find that, please?
        Am I right in thinking that meant he died ON a boat rather than being lost altogether (no body) ?

        Anne

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        • #5
          comes from FMP i would say. i would say yes, he died at sea, but those deaths can be informative. i have one who died at sea in 1915, told me his home address in england, and the last port they had stopped at, along with the co ordinates of death at sea. then i got a handle on the ships logs, and found his entries, about signing up, illness, death and burial at sea.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Anne in Carlisle View Post
            Oh, well done Margaret! Where did you find that, please?
            Am I right in thinking that meant he died ON a boat rather than being lost altogether (no body) ?

            Anne
            From FMP as surmised by kylejustin and the cert can just be ordered from GRO in the normal way.

            Margaret

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            • #7
              Here's LLoyd Register of ships which might help locate the ship http://www.lr.org/about_us/shipping_...ps_online.aspx

              Margaret

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              • #8
                That is amazing ...............how do you all know this stuff!

                I am unable to find anything on the Lloyds Register but suspect from what I have read on there that they deal with ships over 100 tons - this chap worked on fishing smacks (lived in Yarmouth) so these smacks are probably not recorded - although possibly in Yarmouth and Lowestoft. I did find a vessel called "Mary Ann which foundered and sank off Libau(??) but it was not a fishing vessel, there appeared to be no loss of life as the crew was picked up immediately by another vessel which was close by and the dates may not "fit".

                Thank you all so much.

                Sue

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by margaretmarch View Post
                  From FMP as surmised by kylejustin and the cert can just be ordered from GRO in the normal way.

                  Margaret
                  Thanks, I did look on FMP but must have done it wrong!
                  Anne

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Sue1 View Post
                    That is amazing ...............how do you all know this stuff!

                    I am unable to find anything on the Lloyds Register but suspect from what I have read on there that they deal with ships over 100 tons - this chap worked on fishing smacks (lived in Yarmouth) so these smacks are probably not recorded - although possibly in Yarmouth and Lowestoft. I did find a vessel called "Mary Ann which foundered and sank off Libau(??) but it was not a fishing vessel, there appeared to be no loss of life as the crew was picked up immediately by another vessel which was close by and the dates may not "fit".

                    Thank you all so much.

                    Sue
                    Might be worth trying the local records office to see if they have anything - even the local library.

                    Margaret

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                    • #11
                      There was a massive storm up and down the North Sea on 14/10/1881 with 19 boats and 189 fishermen lost. More than 20 fishermen were reported lost from three Yarmouth boats alone, including 5 drowned 'in the North Sea' on 14/10/1881 from the Mary Ann Matilda, Registered number 56346.
                      Frederick Rowland is not shown on that record, which is BT153, Wages & Effects of deceased seamen, but all of them including Frederick are listed in the Marine Deaths Indices as previously mentioned and it must be likely that Frederick also died on the same day.
                      It is likely that the Record Office at Norwich may hold details of the boat registration but local newspapers and the library may be your best bet for any details of the events etc.

                      merleyone

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by merleyone View Post
                        There was a massive storm up and down the North Sea on 14/10/1881 with 19 boats and 189 fishermen lost. More than 20 fishermen were reported lost from three Yarmouth boats alone, including 5 drowned 'in the North Sea' on 14/10/1881 from the Mary Ann Matilda, Registered number 56346.
                        Frederick Rowland is not shown on that record, which is BT153, Wages & Effects of deceased seamen, but all of them including Frederick are listed in the Marine Deaths Indices as previously mentioned and it must be likely that Frederick also died on the same day.
                        It is likely that the Record Office at Norwich may hold details of the boat registration but local newspapers and the library may be your best bet for any details of the events etc.

                        merleyone
                        That's fantastic information merlyone what site did you get that from?

                        Margaret

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                        • #13
                          I haven't had any luck with Norfolk newspapers as I haven't been able to access them for 1880 - 1881.:(

                          Jay
                          Janet in Yorkshire



                          Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

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                          • #14
                            You have given me a phenomenal amount of information - I am extremely grateful.

                            What a terrible way to die. He had only changed vessels since April - prior to the Mary Ann Matilda, on census night 1881, he was Master of the Pirate fishing smack.

                            He left a wife and three small children (as I am sure did many of the other poor men who died in that storm. Ironically though, his wife was Mary Ann, his oldest daughter age 5 was Mary Ann, Alice was 3 and his namesake, Frederick was under one year old- he does not appear to have followed his father's occupation though and managed to live to 41!
                            You have all given me so much information and I am extremely grateful to you all (I wish I had asked earlier as I was in Norwich last week!!!)
                            Sue
                            Last edited by Sue1; 08-09-13, 20:04.

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                            • #15
                              In reply to Margaret, I first knew of this extremely violent storm a few years ago when I was searching for some family fishermen missing from Eyemouth and Googling will turn up some info. on that. (Eyemouth's losses were horrendous with over 100 men lost.)
                              I looked at Frederick Rowland in the 1881 census and tried the surnames of the Pirate's crew against Deaths at Sea in case some of them moved on with FR. None of them did but, amazingly, one of the Pirate's crew was named Robert Knights and one of those who died from the Mary Ann Matilda was named Henry Knights.
                              Sometimes Deaths at Sea also provides details of entries in BT153, Wages and Effects of Deceased Seamen and that was the case with Henry Knights, where five men from that boat were all listed together. None of them had any money, so one presumes there were other effects and either the boat was found or, more likely, they were each found and had some effects on their persons. The fact that Frederick Rowland was not shown in BT153 also suggests to me that he was lost and never found.
                              As you can see, finding all this was more a case of sheer luck rather than Sherlock!

                              merleyone

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                              • #16
                                If you go here:http://www.plimsoll.org/WrecksAndAcc...default.asp#48

                                you can get wreck reports (normally a few pages summarising the inquiry held into the event). Some years are not available online but it is worth enquiring whether there was a report for your vessel and how / where it may be obtained

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                                • #17
                                  That is the second coincidence I have come across with Frederick. Yes, Robert Knights age 16 born Neatishead, Norfolk, was the Cabin Boy on the Pirate on the 1881 Census. You have found Henry Knights on the Mary Ann Matilda which I hadn't known about.
                                  I had mentioned, I think, earlier that I wondered if Frederick Rowland (who, as far as I know, was as poor as a church mouse) had some ownership interest in the Mary Ann Matilda which he is now on in October - a fairly recent change since he was on the Pirate in April.
                                  Whilst googling (and I have no idea what I googled because I dismissed it as probably a coincidence and not relevant) I found that a Mr ?first name Josslyn was connected with some of the Yarmouth boats - can't remember whether he owned them or there was some other connection. Frederick's grandfather was James Rowland (my brick wall) who had married an Elizabeth Joslin (Joceylin) in 1795 - although his grandparents were by now deceased I can't help wondering if there was still a connection with the Joslins (however they spelt it - and they spelt it everywhichway!). There was a big cluster of them in Mountfitchet, Essex (among other places) and I noticed that the Josslyn I came across, although living in Yarmouth at the time, retired to Essex where Frederick originally came from.............intriguing!

                                  Sue

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                                  • #18
                                    It might be worth a shot mailing the public library in Yarmouth about shipping records, although I have no idea how extensive their records are.( I have a few oddments which I copied down 20+ years ago.)
                                    I believe boat ownership was based on shares (64ths comes to mind for some reason????) the theory being that 1) it was a "shared" loss when a boat went down 2) you didn't have all your eggs in one basket and lose everything 3) the expense of purchasing and running a boat 4) it allowed mariners or their families to buy into the business, possibly improving performance.

                                    Jay
                                    Last edited by Janet in Yorkshire; 09-09-13, 12:00.
                                    Janet in Yorkshire



                                    Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

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