A fresh pair of eyes

[annabel]

I am doing a family tree for a friend his father side I have done, but stuck with his mother'side



His grandmother was a Carmen Allen according to the 1911 census she was born in Argentina 1896 as was her mother and siblings, her father Robert Allen was born 1867 Toxteth park Liverpool.

There are 2 Robert Allen's born there in 1867 which one is he,

When did he go to Argentina can not find any shipping records for him or the family

Looked for some Argentina marriages but no luck.


Thank you Annabel

[Janet in Yorkshire]

They were in Blackpool in 1901 - mother recorded as Patricia, but Rosa in 1911.

Jay

[kylejustin]

there's no birth showing in the overseas births index on FMP, so i take it she was not registered as a british citizen. was she naturalised? was this indicated in 1911? such as 'british subject' written next to birthplace?

for reference:
1911- 74 chatham rd, birkenhead, cheshire.

ALLEN, Robert- Head, Married. 44, b.1867, Toxteth Park Lpool. Boilermaker
ALLEN, Rosa- Wife, Married 22 years. 39, b.1872, Tucuman Argentina
ALLEN, Mary Ann- Daughter. Single. 20, b.1891, Salta Argentina. Housemaid Domestic
ALLEN, Frank-Son. Single. 19, b.1892, Tucuman Argentina. Rivet Heater
ALLEN, Julia-Daughter. Single. 17, b. 1894, Tucuman Argentina. Domestic Servant General
ALLEN, Carmen-Daughter. Single. 15, b.1896, Salta Argentina. Apprentice Dress Maker

[Christine in Herts]

there's no birth showing in the overseas births index on FMP, so i take it she was not registered as a british citizen. was she naturalised? was this indicated in 1911? such as 'british subject' written next to birthplace?

for reference:
1911- 74 chatham rd, birkenhead, cheshire.

ALLEN, Robert- Head, Married. 44, b.1867, Toxteth Park Lpool. Boilermaker
ALLEN, Rosa- Wife, Married 22 years. 39, b.1872, Tucuman Argentina
ALLEN, Mary Ann- Daughter. Single. 20, b.1891, Salta Argentina. Housemaid Domestic
ALLEN, Frank-Son. Single. 19, b.1892, Tucuman Argentina. Rivet Heater
ALLEN, Julia-Daughter. Single. 17, b. 1894, Tucuman Argentina. Domestic Servant General
ALLEN, Carmen-Daughter. Single. 15, b.1896, Salta Argentina. Apprentice Dress Maker

I rather think she'd become British simply by marrying a British subject - just as a British-born woman would have ceased to be British if she had married someone who was not a British subject.

Christine

[kylejustin]

they're all listed as 'british by parentage' in 1911, so still no help in finding records. though i suppose now we know where she is born, figuring out what records exist could help.

[kylejustin]

there are some birth records for salta and tucuman on familysearch, but not seeing any of these kids.

[Christine in Herts]

If you have a look on Lancashire OPC, there's a baptism for Robert ALLEN on 25 Nov 1866, at St John the Baptist, Toxteth. He's the child of of John ALLEN, a joiner, & Anne, of Drysdale Street.

That might help to rule one in or out at some point when other info becomes available.

Christine

[kylejustin]

he's in the argentina census:

"Argentina, National Census, 1895"
Name: Roberto Allen
Event Place: Partido Lomas de Zamora, Buenos Aires, Argentina
Age (Formatted in Original Language): 19 años
Birth Year (Estimated): 1876
Birth Province:
Birth Nation: Inglaterra
Gender (Original Language): Varón
Marital Status (Original Language): Soltero
GS Film number: 732755
Digital Folder Number: 004161661

[Christine in Herts]

he's in the argentina census:

"Argentina, National Census, 1895"
Name: Roberto Allen
Event Place: Partido Lomas de Zamora, Buenos Aires, Argentina
Age (Formatted in Original Language): 19 años
Birth Year (Estimated): 1876
Birth Province:
Birth Nation: Inglaterra
Gender (Original Language): Varón
Marital Status (Original Language): Soltero
GS Film number: 732755
Digital Folder Number: 004161661

Is there an image you can check for that census? The DoB would fit better if he were "29" rather than "19".

Christine

[kylejustin]

anyone speak spanish? found maria, francisco and julia together, with other kids:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-12400-190916-24?cc=1410078&wc=11762356

no parents though

[Janet in Yorkshire]

There are images available for the 1895 census on family search.

I couldn't find a suitable entry for wife (either forename ) & children grouped together. However, I don't know how the people enumerated were recorded - i.e in households/family groups as in the UK & USA, or in some other way.

Jay

ETA - well done, Kyle. Wonder if the parents were away, or married women were recorded under maiden names?

[kylejustin]

robert, with a 'florencia' on the page:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11814-168054-58?cc=1410078&wc=11766783

defo 19, but only one born england

[Janet in Yorkshire]

Do you think Florencia could have been Patricia in 1901?

Jay

[Janet in Yorkshire]

Wonder if the job description for Robert is a shortened version of "engineer mechanical" ???

Jay

[Christine in Herts]

Wonder if the job description for Robert is a shortened version of "engineer mechanical" ???

Jay

I think that's what I would presume. "Ingenieur" is the French, so I reckon (if I'd bothered to get out our Spanish dictionary), that it would be something very similar in Spanish.

And he could read and write, according to column "I".

Christine

[kylejustin]

i don't know what her name is! maybe the poster has information about her death? what name she was using then?

[kylejustin]

images are viewable for salta and tucuman......if you were really intrigued, you could go through them, and hope to find some baptisms?

[annabel]

Thank you all for your replies, its getting late here so will study them tomorrow.

Carmen Allen married Richard Bennetts Thomas
just received the birth certificate of their daughter Carmen Lily Thomas born Cornwall, 1917

[AntonyM]

I would think about looking at UK railway records - a British engineer in Argentina at that time would almost certainly be involved in the railway business.