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irish roots- 6 tactics of the successful researcher

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  • irish roots- 6 tactics of the successful researcher


  • #2
    Hi,

    Now I understand exactly why I have finally given up on my husband's Irish Roots!!!

    Sue

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    • #3
      i read it and thought, don't we already do it that way? i'm sure it's because of lack of records and unoriginality of names that we have so much trouble!

      Comment


      • #4
        Mmmmm - no useful hints or advice then for those who wish to research the origins of RC ancestors who had come to England between 1851 and 1861 and were recorded in 1861 census as "born Ireland."

        Jay
        Janet in Yorkshire



        Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

        Comment


        • #5
          it doesn't really help anyone i think. just basically says always dig, you may come up with something! i've got 3 irish lines. they all came to australia. one i know the village in clare from our records. but my family isn't present, even though the dates of the registers are the right time frame. the other two were never more specific than county antrim/belfast and cork on their records. im lucky the antrim line had an unusual name, and were seemingly protestant. googling found a book published on them. but if my lines went to england, these hints still aren't of use.

          Comment


          • #6
            Interestingly and infuriatingly (I thought anyway) a relative of my husband who LIVES IN IRELAND decided to research the Irish part of the Tree and could get absolutely nowhere - he went to PRONI and he went to the Archives in Dublin - in the end he employed the services of an experienced FH Researcher in Ireland who had enormous difficulty himself - he did manage to sort out part of one family.

            About 4 years ago my husband and I were in Dublin and went into the Archives there out of curiosity - I looked up my husband and his father - neither exist - who am I really married to!! My father-in-law was born in 1904 or 1906ish and died in 1949 - he should have been on the 1911 census if nothing else in Rathfriland (Registration District: Newry) but he wasn't. Rathfriland is now Northern Ireland but at the time of his birth it wasn't - in fact my husband is allowed to have an Republic of Ireland passport because his father was born before 1916! My husband was also born in Rathfriland and was born in a Nursing Home in Newry and registered in Newry presumably but I imagine his records are in Belfast because he was born in the early 40s! I also understand that many Catholic Records (which these would be) have been retained by Parish Priests which makes things even more difficult. One relative I tried very hard to look for, we knew had been born in County Tyrone in a place called Fivemiletown. Can't find any records for it except possibly in Clogher, which seems to sometimes be Tyrone and sometimes Fermanagh - it would appear the Catholic Registration may not always be in the same place - could this be so I wonder? Totally bewildered

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Sue1 View Post
              Interestingly and infuriatingly (I thought anyway) a relative of my husband who LIVES IN IRELAND decided to research the Irish part of the Tree and could get absolutely nowhere - he went to PRONI and he went to the Archives in Dublin - in the end he employed the services of an experienced FH Researcher in Ireland who had enormous difficulty himself - he did manage to sort out part of one family.

              About 4 years ago my husband and I were in Dublin and went into the Archives there out of curiosity - I looked up my husband and his father - neither exist - who am I really married to!! My father-in-law was born in 1904 or 1906ish and died in 1949 - he should have been on the 1911 census if nothing else in Rathfriland (Registration District: Newry) but he wasn't. Rathfriland is now Northern Ireland but at the time of his birth it wasn't - in fact my husband is allowed to have an Republic of Ireland passport because his father was born before 1916! My husband was also born in Rathfriland and was born in a Nursing Home in Newry and registered in Newry presumably but I imagine his records are in Belfast because he was born in the early 40s! I also understand that many Catholic Records (which these would be) have been retained by Parish Priests which makes things even more difficult. One relative I tried very hard to look for, we knew had been born in County Tyrone in a place called Fivemiletown. Can't find any records for it except possibly in Clogher, which seems to sometimes be Tyrone and sometimes Fermanagh - it would appear the Catholic Registration may not always be in the same place - could this be so I wonder? Totally bewildered
              Welcome to frustration! However looking for Catholic baptisms/marriages in the National Archives Dublin willl find few if any Catholic baptisms or marriages. You would find the Protestant baptisms/marriages at least what remain of them at Dublin NA. the place to go for catholic marriages and baptisms pre 1864 and up to about 1880 is the National Library Dublin where the catholic parishes are arranged by Diocese, so the first thing you must know to research is the Diocese they were baptised/married and then you can browse the books, which will lead you to the relevant microfilm. Modern or BMD after 1864 for all religions should be found at the GRO Dublin which has changed its address since I was last there and is I think now in Joyce Street, but a google search for GRO Dublin will find the address. You can order BMD certs post 1864 online. Have you tried the online 1901 and 1911 Census recently, as more records became available over the last couple of years. Cork ones not found by me 3 years ago have been found more recently.

              I think the six tactics for successful Irish research is tongue in cheek but makes a lot of Irish sense! You have to be a real detective for Irish tracing but it can be done!! You just have to use Griffiths/Tithe Aplotments/County Libraries/Historical Societies/Museums/TNA Dublin and Belfast/Dublin National Library/cousins/Irish Newspapers/Books/Rate Books/the library at Queens etc! But then if you want to really research your roots in the UK you need to use many of these methods.

              PS it is true to say that ALL Catholic Irish baptisms and marriages are still with ALL the Catholic churches all over Ireland, BUT copies were sent to the Dublin National Library. Tipperary, Clare, parts of Limerick, Kerry and Mallow part of Cork used to have records only available through the Heritage Centres or after asking for permission from the Bishops but this has gradually disappeared and Tipperary was I think the last county to make their records available to Dublin in 2008. There may well be some churches who have never passed on the records, and I certainly did not find records for one area of Cork in Dublin NL but a visit to the local church soon found them!

              Janet
              Last edited by Janet; 25-07-13, 17:14.

              Comment


              • #8
                Thanks Janet - actually I am not sure which building in Dublin my husband and I went to - it was a very nice building near St. Stephens Green and the University - can't actually remember anything else about it - it WAS computerised.

                I have looked at the 1901 and 1911 census and have got what I can from them on one part of the family but when it comes to my husband's direct line it would be absolute guesswork - nothing anecdotal about father or grandfather (father died when husband 6) BUT my mother-in-law (I sat her down and gave her a Gin and asked her to give me the names of her relatives!) have gone 2 to 3 generations - I thought her name was uncommon (Murtagh) apparantly not - loads of them. She kept a lot of newspapers (one that springs to mind is about a Judge Murtagh who went to Oz - I think he was a Judge - got accidentally shot by his wife - I love it when people keep things like. Amongst her stuff I found my husbands grandfather and pictures of him as his wife. I found his marriage details and his driving licence and along with his marriage details there is a certificate for the marriage and my husband's G. Grandfather had signed - this in 1911 and this is one of the ones that I would just be guessing! Another little problem with this family, don't know if it is an Irish thing or perhaps a pretty general thing - they swap their names around - my husband has never been called by his first name, only his second having been named after an uncle who died 10 days before he was born. His brother's name has been swapped round also!!! I bet they have all done that - must be a family "thing" on the male side so even though I am looking for a Francis Cassidy (and I don't know what other first name he had) Francis probably wasn't his first name - I think I would go round the bend trying to research them so decided to let them be until I have done all the others I want to get to grips with.

                Sue

                Comment


                • #9
                  One I would suggest for families born in England of Irish catholic descent -

                  look at the parish records

                  baptisms - godparents - thus might be able to connect different families

                  also

                  marriages - witnesses - often with addresses!!

                  one parish record for a marriage actually gave both the bride and grooms parents christian names, unfortunately not the mother's maiden names though.

                  Also follow anyone born in Ireland through the census's as sometimes a place of birth is given before the 1911 census.

                  I had one who in 1901 said born Cork and had died before 1911. So that was a place to start for me though I've found nothing as yet.

                  I had another one who said Ireland all the way through to old age and then in 1911 gave her place of residence as her birthplace!!!!!!!!!!
                  Last edited by JBee; 26-07-13, 11:41.



                  Researching Irish families: FARMER, McBRIDE McQUADE, McQUAID, KIRK, SANDS/SANAHAN (Cork), BARR,

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                  • #10
                    Bless! She probably couldn't remember where she was born - old age does that

                    Sue

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Don't assume that if the children were born in Ireland that the parents are Irish.

                      I did some research for a friend, who had all the details of children's births and parents marriage but couldn't find anything on the parents at all. They were both deceased by the 1901 census, so no help with birth details there either. later we discovered that neither parent was actually Irish, both were English!!!
                      Wendy



                      PLEASE SCAN AT 300-600 DPI FOR RESTORATION PURPOSES. THANK YOU!

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by WendyPusey View Post
                        Don't assume that if the children were born in Ireland that the parents are Irish.

                        I did some research for a friend, who had all the details of children's births and parents marriage but couldn't find anything on the parents at all. They were both deceased by the 1901 census, so no help with birth details there either. later we discovered that neither parent was actually Irish, both were English!!!
                        Even one parent not being Irish can fox you, especially if the marriage took place in Ireland and one child born/baptised Ireland! That happened to many soldiers and if husband to be was Protestant then a Protestant marriage in a Protestant church will often be on the cards, even with an RC wife to be!!

                        Janet
                        Last edited by Janet; 26-07-13, 17:29.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Lots of IRISH PARISH RECORDS on here...

                          http://www.irishgenealogy.ie/index.html Free website. Not all counties are covered though.

                          Loads for Dublin 1700's to 1912 in some cases.

                          Found lots of my Ancestor’s families on here!



                          My Brady Gt Grandparents had 18 children born alive...but several Births not Registered.

                          Even my Mum's birth (1916) wasn't registered. She only had her Baptism Certificate as proof of her existance!
                          teresa

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Sue1 View Post

                            About 4 years ago my husband and I were in Dublin and went into the Archives there out of curiosity - I looked up my husband and his father - neither exist - who am I really married to!! My father-in-law was born in 1904 or 1906ish and died in 1949 - he should have been on the 1911 census if nothing else in Rathfriland (Registration District: Newry) but he wasn't. Rathfriland is now Northern Ireland but at the time of his birth it wasn't - in fact my husband is allowed to have an Republic of Ireland passport because his father was born before 1916! My husband was also born in Rathfriland and was born in a Nursing Home in Newry and registered in Newry presumably but I imagine his records are in Belfast because he was born in the early 40s! I also understand that many Catholic Records (which these would be) have been retained by Parish Priests which makes things even more difficult. One relative I tried very hard to look for, we knew had been born in County Tyrone in a place called Fivemiletown. Can't find any records for it except possibly in Clogher, which seems to sometimes be Tyrone and sometimes Fermanagh - it would appear the Catholic Registration may not always be in the same place - could this be so I wonder? Totally bewildered
                            Sue1,

                            Re Irish nationality, you say that your husband is entitled to an Irish passport because his father was born there before 1916. Actually it’s simpler than that. Anyone born in any part of Ireland is entitled to an Irish passport (save for some exceptions relating to diplomats and illegal migrants). Birth in any part of the island is sufficient to this day. The Irish constitution aspires for the whole island to be one country and therefore persons born in what is now Northern Ireland automatically qualify for an Irish passport (as well as a British one in most cases).

                            Regarding births deaths & marriages in Northern Ireland from 1.1.1922 onwards, these are not on-line anywhere and you need to contact GRONI in Belfast if you want to find one. That may be why you have not been able to find the records you were after.

                            Find out about births, adoptions, deaths, marriages, civil partnerships, ordering life event certifcates and what to do after someone dies



                            Elwyn
                            Last edited by Elwyn; 28-07-13, 20:06.
                            Elwyn

                            I am based in Co. Antrim and undertake research in Northern Ireland. Please feel free to contact me for help or advice via PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Many thanks for that Elwyn and for your kind offer which I may well take you up on at a later date (by pm)

                              Another interesting thing came to light over passports when our children were young - they were born in England and my husband was allowed to have them on his Irish Passport - we had thought to make it a family passport and that, as his wife, I could also be put on it - but no, I couldn't be on it ............actually I would have been surprised if I had been allowed on it because I have no claim at all other than marriage but I was surprised that the children were allowed on. I think, at the time, an Irish Passport was MUCH cheaper than a British Passport but I believe the Irish one is now the dearer so my husband now travels on a British Passport.

                              At one time I decided to apply for my father-in-law's death certificate which no one in the family seems to have - I did this because he died very suddenly age c42-46 of a previously undiagnosed heart condition - some kind of myopathy the family think. His younger brother also dropped dead of it age 42 of the same thing and my husband's older brother also "dropped dead" age 42 of a heart condition but this was a Coronary and is probably not relevant - obviously with children I would have been very interested to know exactly what it is. I was given quite a grilling (I applied by phone - somewhere in Belfast) i.e. why did I want it, what relative to him was I etc. Is this a usual thing? I was surprised to say the least and never did pursue it. In retrospect I think I can understand the caution but is this usual - if, for example, a researcher wanted a BM or D cert, how would he/she get one. Since my husband's brother lives in Ireland we will ask him to get it for us.

                              Sue

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Sue,

                                I think the reason that you could not be added to your husband’s passport was that whilst your children are automatically Irish so long as they are legitimate and have a father born in Ireland, you were not automatically Irish. You need to be naturalised as an Irish citizen first before you too could have one. The rules used to be that you had to be married to an Irish citizen for a minimum of 3 years, after which you could apply for citizenship. (There is a naturalisation fee to pay of course). You would then get a naturalisation certificate, which in turn would enable you to obtain an Irish passport. If you ever wanted to apply for one, you should check with the Irish Embassy in London or the Irish passport office in Dublin to make sure my advice is still correct.

                                Family passports have been abolished now, and each person needs to get their own document (even babes in arms). An Irish passport today costs 80 euros, so that’s currently pretty similar to a UK one.

                                I have not heard of anyone ringing GRONI getting a grilling. Can’t explain that. I use them all the time and generally find them to be very helpful. You can ring them up and pay over the phone, and they usually post the cert out the next day. The basic fee for a cert is £15, but if you don’t know the date and they have to do a lot of searching, then there is sometimes an additional search fee.

                                If the events you are interested in are pre 1.1.1922, then it is usually cheaper to order from GRO Roscommon because they only charge 4 euros for a photocopy, though the turnaround time is not as prompt as GRONI. However for events from 1.1.1922 onwards, GRONI have the only copies, so you have to use them. The indexes are not on-line anywhere either so again you need to go to them, though there are plans to put both the indexes and certs to a cut off date on-line later this year (similar to Scotlandspeople).

                                Elwyn
                                Last edited by Elwyn; 29-07-13, 07:18.
                                Elwyn

                                I am based in Co. Antrim and undertake research in Northern Ireland. Please feel free to contact me for help or advice via PM.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  ooh elwyn that would be very nice, if they put civil registration online. might be able to make use of some maybe's at that point!

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Hi Elwyn,

                                    That was incredibly helpful - thank you very much - had no idea about Roscommon.

                                    Sadly, the death cert I am going to ask my brother-in-law to get is not pre-1922 but 1949 and the Registration of death will presumably have been in Newry as Rathfriland comes under Newry for Registration so imagine it will be Belfast which will be convenient for him.

                                    One part of the family that I do have, or some of them at least, are McGeoughs (apparently I do not pronounce it correctly!) from Carriff Grove House, Carriff, Armagh. I do have, courtesy of the chap who has already done some research on them, the family back to 1792ish and actually have a picture of the oldest chap, Patrick McGeough's grave (I note he or the stonemason have spelt his name McGough) - I haven't found his wife and it is going to be interesting because I have no idea which direction they went in to register/baptise - half the property is apparently in ?Louth and half in Armagh!!! But that research is for later.

                                    Sue
                                    Last edited by Sue1; 29-07-13, 10:27. Reason: typo

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Sue,

                                      Yes a death in Rathfriland in 1949 will have been registered in Newry, but the records are centralized in Belfast. So contact GRONI.

                                      For the Carriff events, the death will have been registered in the registration district for the relevant townland. You can see which district that would have been from the Seanruad site. The column for “PLU” tells you which registration town applies to each townland. The registration district boundaries didn’t necessarily follow county boundaries. So for example Castleblaney in Co Monaghan includes quite a bit of Co Armagh. You’ll probably find that the same applies in your case. The whole of Carriff is probably assigned to the same registration district, and so precisely which county the event occurred in then becomes irrelevant.

                                      The seanruad site can be found on this link.




                                      Elwyn
                                      Last edited by Elwyn; 01-08-13, 17:58.
                                      Elwyn

                                      I am based in Co. Antrim and undertake research in Northern Ireland. Please feel free to contact me for help or advice via PM.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Many thanks for that Elwyn - I think there is now hope for the Irish line in the fullness of time! The website you mention also sounds incredibly helpful - it is not one that I have come across.

                                        Sue

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