Super sleuth required !

[Pirate77]

Thought I was pretty good at this game...apparently not ! Trying to find a marriage between John Kneill (Neil,Kneal,Knil,Neal,Nyle etc.) and Ann Folland c.1817-1846 , location Devon possibly Exeter. I have a birth cert. for their son Mathew Henry Kneil ,b.1846 Exeter Devon, father John Kneil a Smith(Blacksmith) and Ann Kneil formerly Folland . Lots of Neal marriages in various spellings but not these two! Looked in all the usual places i.e. Ancestry, FMP, IGI, etc. Nothing that fits the bill... Any help gratefully received....Thank you... P.s Ann appears in the 1851 Census b.1821 Exeter with her children but no John ?

[SmallTownGirl]

Er ... you say

"Ann Folland c. 1817-1846"

and

"Ann appears on the 1851 census ...."

Which seems to contradict. Or am I not reading it correctly?

[Pirate77]

Sorry...maybe I wasn't that clear.....I'm only looking for her marriage, which not always but most probably would have been prior to the birth of son Mathew in 1846 and if she was born c.1821 according to 1851 census I was assuming approx. 1840-1846 for the marriage ? Thanks for your interest by the way !

[Leanne]

Er ... you say

"Ann Folland c. 1817-1846"

and

"Ann appears on the 1851 census ...."

Which seems to contradict. Or am I not reading it correctly?

I think the marriage is c. 1817-1846

[Leanne]

Is her last name spelt Kneil on the 1851 census ?

[Elaine ..Spain]

I am thinking this might be the census for 1851?
Ann Neale - b1821 Exeter

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1851&indiv=try&h=5723362

HO107; Piece: 1869; Folio: 56; Page: 32

[Leanne]

I was looking at that one when I asked how the last name was spelt lol
Is it a common thing for last names to get changed over time. I've never really noticed in my family only once but he was born in france and all he did was change from Normand to Norman. Cause apparently Normand is the french version of Norman and now he was in Australia he started using Norman.

In my opinion, I think names should be the same no matter where you are, they should never be changed it causes too much confusion.

[Pirate77]

Hi Everyone, in the 1851 census spelt Neele, her sons birth cert spelt Kneil , Ann signed by her mark X

[Pirate77]

150 years ago over half the population couldn't spell, so records relied upon how the enumerator or registrar interpreted a name phonetically ... One of the perils of genealogical research I'm afraid, been experiencing this problem for over 30years now !

[Elaine ..Spain]

Hi Everyone, in the 1851 census spelt Neele, her sons birth cert spelt Kneil , Ann signed by her mark X

That seems to be the same one that I have linked to in post #6.
Transcribed as Neale on Ancestry and Neele on Findmypast ... just to confuse things!

[SmallTownGirl]

I'm still a bit confused.

Is the 1851 census that Elaine found the correct one, pls? Because there are two children older than Matthew (called Henry here), the eldest being a 10yo Elizabeth, which, if Elizabeth is legitimate, would mean a marriage before 1840.

[Elaine ..Spain]

Pirate - have you found the family in a census after 1851.

I am wondering if there is any connection to this one -
1861 census:
Ann Neale born 1816, with children William (8) and Eliza (5) - living at 12 Waterloo Street, St. David Exeter.
Ann shown as married but no husband listed.

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1861&indiv=try&h=17664146

RG 9; Piece: 1397; Folio: 34; Page: 36

[Pirate77]

Hello again, In the 1851 census Ann does indeed have her children with her Elizabeth 1841,Charles1844,Henry1847 and John1849 so yes I was ideally looking for a marriage pre 1841 ...it is feasible of course she wasn't officially married but considered herself so, the marriage may have taken place outside of England , Ireland maybe ? they may even have married later than 1849 ! As always numerous possibilities...personally, I think there are a number of strong connections to Exeter and that the answer lies there. Does anyone have access to Irish records by any chance ? I did look at the 1861 Elaine and haven't ruled it out yet, if it is Ann she's gained 5 yrs in age but then that happens a lot...either deliberate lies or more likely they had no idea where they were born, how old they were and couldn't read or write...at the time more important was a roof over their heads and finding the next meal !!! Factors to consider; she is in St. David's, right name(Ann Neale) different spelling , gained two more children William and Eliza, did Elizabeth 1841 die young and names another daughter Elizabeth or is it actually Eliza ? Says she is a Washerwomen, previously 1851 says she is a Charwomen so near enough there I guess. And again no sign of husband John? Could you find her later Elaine 1871/81/91 ? The only child I can follow through the years is Henry i.e. Mathew Henry... So just to recap , I need to find John 1851/61/71/81/91/01 or Death plus Marriage to Ann....Thanks again for the interest all...

[Janet]

Pirate,

Good luck with chasing Neale/NealleNeall/Neal/Neille/Neil/Neile and all these with the prefix O in front in Ireland!!!! I am chasing these names in Co Tipperary! These are popular names all over Ireland, so unless you have a county somewhere written down, you may be in for a rather protracted headache! I have to say that Knell is a new one on me, and that sounds as though it has been anglicised?

And yes, names were changed over the centuries for various reasons. In Ireland it was often religious, as the O was dropped in O'Neil and variants, as well as other O surnames, as people were asked to give up their catholic faith in return for handouts during famines in the 1800's. Those that succumbed were known as "soupers".

Some names were down to the accents of the local people so names like Noble could become Nobell/Nobel/Nobull etc! I have not got any straightforward names in my tree. Try spelling Tebbut/Hight/Plowman/Rowell in as many ways as possible!

Janet

[Elaine ..Spain]

Pirate - I was trying to follow up the possible 1861 census, to see if I could find Ann or either of the children in a subsequent census.

The only one I can come up with is William Neale, born 1853 Exeter - in army barracks in Windsor, Berks. (1st Battalion Grenadier Guards)

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&rank=0&gsfn=william&gsln=neale&sx=&f1=&f2=&f3=&f18=&f12__n=&rg_81004011__date=1853&rs_81004011__date=0&f29=&_82004011=&_82004013=&_82004014=exeter&_8000C002=&_80008002=&_80018002=&f7=&f8=&f9=&gskw=&prox=1&db=uki1881&ti=5538&ti.si=0&gss=angs-d&pcat=35&fh=0&h=427987&recoff=

RG11; Piece: 1325; Folio: 132; Page: 25

If this is the same William as the one in the 1861 then where is he in 1871!

[Elaine]

...and is Matthew Henry in the army 1871

RG10; Piece: 819; Folio: 40; Page: 26

do you have him 1861?

[Elaine]

Trying to fill in the gaps as you say you can only follow Matthew Henry

Poss 1881 married Ann Holmes Hern Exeter 1868
Name: Charles Kneill
Age (Original): 36
Gender: Male
Birth Year: 1845
Birthplace: Exeter, Devon, England
Relationship to Head of Household: Head
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: Station Master On West Lancs Railway
Address: 3 Shellfield Road
Event Place: North Meols, Lancashire, England

Record Type: Household
GS Film number: 1341896
Affiliate Publication Number: RG11
Piece/Folio: 3747 / 87
Page Number: 10
Household Gender Age Birthplace
Head Charles Kneill M 36 Exeter, Devon, England
Wife Ann Holme Kneill F 36 Exeter, Devon, England
Daughter Annie E Kneill F 11 Exeter, Devon, England
Son William H Kneill M 8 Blaine, Monmouthshire, England
Son Charles J Kneill M 5 Wales
Daughter Florence J Kneill F 3 Longton, Lancashire, England
Daughter Ellen Kneill F 0 North Meols, Lancashire, England

Wales 1871
RG10; Piece: 5378; Folio: 45; Page: 24
Charles...stoker at the gas works

not getting anywhere 1861

England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index, 1837-1915
Name: Charles W A Kneill
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1845
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1912
Age at Death: 67
Registration District: Preston
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8e
Page: 624

You can easily find him if he is the right Charles

[Pirate77]

Hello everyone and thanks for your info...Elaine and Elaine; If William Neale b.1853 is the son of Ann Neale in the 1861 Exeter it would sit nicely with the fact his older brother Mathew Henry was a soldier also ,and I believe he is the Henry at Aldershot 1871. His wife Sophia states he is a soldier and he's not with her in 1871. Can't find him at all in 1881 but he crops up again in Exeter 1891 with Sophia and the family. He is in the railway records 1886/8 as a coalman, Sophia dies in 1897 and 1898 Mathew Henry re-marries a Philipa Goard ,together in the 1901/11 Census. Interesting that Charles 1844 another brother here worked with coal in 1871 wales and later Station Master in Lancs ! Exeter back then was a huge regional railway centre , strangely called Exmouth junction, my grandfather, father and uncles work there as blacksmiths, coachbuilders and engine drivers until its closure in the late 60's . Thanks again for your continued interest in my elusive family not least John & Ann ...where they officially married and if so where and when ??????

[Elaine]

Wasn't sure if it was right but the extra you have put in, I came across. So in that case, there is a William c 1853 in Preston who also worked on the railway...will have to double back later, think it was 1901

I looked at historical directories too, but didn't find John.

[Elaine]

Here you go, just from Exeter, not railway!

1901 RG13 piece 3952 folio 98 page 14
33, Aughton Street, Preston
KNEILL, William Head Married M 48 1853 Caretaker Corporation Stores
Exeter, Devonshire
KNEILL, Ellen Wife Married F 52 1849
Bramford Speke, Devonshire