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Our resident expert Stephen Rigden, pictured below, answers your queries.
From Betty Watts:
‘This is a long shot but thought I would try this long outstanding research on you.
My grandfather William Richard Berry was born in 1872 and according to 1901 and 1911 censuses, this was in Limehouse, Middlesex. The only relevant baptism I could find gives his father as Charles (spelt Berrey) whereas on his marriage certificate he is recorded as William. His son, my uncle, was Charles William. The mother was Jane Philpot (I have not found a marriage for these two which I hoped would perhaps add William to his name).
I have found William in the 1891 census at Dorchester Barracks, place of birth Middlesex. In the 1901 and 1911 censuses he gives Limehouse as the birth place.
I have looked for his service records several times at The National Archives in Kew and also online but unfortunately they are missing. I do have a prayer book with the following inscription:
Pte. W.R. Berry
2nd Dorset Regiment
Good Friday
South African Field Force
I have even tried the Dorchester Army office, although not lately. I did find a William Berry in the 1881 census in Stoke Common, Hants, with a birthplace of London, Middlesex. He was the grandson of Henry Philpot but there was also a Frederick Berry, aged 45, unmarried.
There’s another William in the 1881 census, in Gifford Street, Islington, aged nine, born in Middlesex. He’s the grandson of Thomas Berry. I have had many wrong birth certificates over the years so I’m still left with nothing positive. William married my grandmother Florence Annie Ridsdill in 1898.
I have been researching this branch since 1984 so you can guess how frustrated I feel but I’m ever hopeful that something will turn up.’
Stephen says:
‘Thanks for writing in with your question, Betty. I have done a little digging using a few online sources on findmypast.co.uk and have found some new leads for you to follow up.
Firstly, I have found army pension papers for William Richard Berry in the findmypast.co.uk collection of records of men pensioned from the British Army during the 19th century.
The record is composed of five pages. These give various details including a physical description (with tattoos) and a nice outline of his military career. Before he joined the Dorset Regiment on 22 January 1891, he had previously enlisted into the 3rd Battalion Hampshire Regiment, from which he purchased his discharge. I am reliably informed by a military historian colleague that, at that date, discharge could be purchased for £10 within the first three months.
At the time, £10 would presumably have been a tidy sum (especially as he was only 18 years and one month old when he joined the Dorsets, and is described as a labourer). Perhaps army life suited him in the long run, however, as he subsequently served 12 years with the Dorsets and then, in 1903, signed up for a further four years’ service in the Army Reserve, before discharge on 21 January 1907.
Most of his service was at home, but he did serve overseas in the Second Anglo-Boer War, from November 1899 to June 1900. For this, he was awarded the Queen’s South Africa Medal, the latter with two clasps – Tugela Heights (fought during February 1900) and the Relief of Ladysmith (1 March 1900). You can easily search the internet for these two actions to find out more.
This is all interesting information, but there are two other facts to extract from these so-called ‘Chelsea Pensioner’ service papers.
Firstly, upon enlistment into the Dorset Regiment, William’s place of birth is given as Bishopstoke, Hampshire, but then struck out and replaced with London, Middlesex (the correction is initialled by the recruiting officer). This could of course have been a simple clerical error (the form was completed on behalf of the soldier, not by him) but I do not think so – see below…
More significantly, on the fifth page, the column 12 for next of kin is completed with the details of an unmarried sister, Mary Jane Berry, of 11 Harbe[r]son Road, Balham in London (she is later struck out following the marriage of William in 1898, as from that point his wife was of course his next of kin). Note that this address falls under Streatham in census returns. In the 1891 census, at this address are Henry and Emily Phillpott and one Mary Merry (sic – presumably an error by the census enumerator) – the last named being the Phillpotts’ 24-year old niece, born in Bishopstoke, Hampshire. The head of household Henry Phillpott is also from Bishopstoke. I note that you refer to a Jane Philpot in your emailed question. To view this image, go to findmypast.co.uk’s census reference search and search under the following citation: RG12 piece 455 folio 60 page 13.
Now if you search the 1881 census for the siblings Mary and William Richard Berry, you come across the following entry in Winchester: RG11 piece 1234 folio 66 page 27. Here a widowed Henry Philpott is with his son William Philpott, his unmarried stepson Frederick Berry, his granddaughter Mary J Berry (born Bishopstoke) and his grandson William Berry (born London, Middlesex). This is certainly the right family.
Track back to 1871 and look at another Winchester district census return – reference RG10 piece 1213 folio 54 page 7 for Stoke Common in Bishopstoke. Here Henry and Ann Philpot are in residence with unmarried sons William, Henry and George Philpot, unmarried 19-year old ‘son-in-law’ (meaning step-son) Richard Berry and grandchildren Mary J and Walter W Berry (aged four months and 11 months respectively, both born in Bishopstoke). Walter W is another sibling of your William Richard, while Richard would be William Richard’s uncle – William Richard himself won’t be born for another two or three years.
For the 1861 census, the citation for this family is RG9 piece 694 folio 62 page 29. Here Henry and Ann Phillpott are with his mother Elizabeth Phillpott and their children William, Mary and Henry Phillpott, together with 13-year old ‘daughter-in-law’ (step-daughter) Jane Berry and 9-year-old ‘son-in-law’ (step-son) Richard Berry.
You will need to examine all these records very carefully to piece together what is quite a complicated family structure. It is clear that Henry Phil(l)pot(t) married Ann(e) Berry in 1859, and that both had children from previous relationships – Henry had sons William and Mary; Ann(e) had children Frederick, Jane and Richard; while together they had Henry Jnr and George.
It is possible that Ann(e)’s children were born illegitimately – I think she is the Ann Berry with 5-year-old Frederick in the 1841 census at census ref HO107 piece 404 book 10 page 5. It is also possible, although I haven’t been able to prove it, that Ann(e)’s daughter Jane Berry, the step-daughter of Henry Phil(l)pot(t), was a single mother with children Mary Jane, Walter W and William Richard. You might be able to start proving or disproving this by getting the birth certificate of Mary Jane Berry – what would appear to be her birth was registered in June quarter 1866 in Winchester registration district (volume 2C, page 103).
Good luck with your research!’
If you’d like to send your question to Stephen, please register or opt to receive newsletters in ‘my account’. Stephen only has time to answer a couple of queries each month but if yours wasn’t answered this time, you could be lucky next month!
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Please note: This post has originated from a news feed from an external website.
Family Tree Forum neither endorses nor is responsible for the views of the author or any other content.
From Betty Watts:
‘This is a long shot but thought I would try this long outstanding research on you.
My grandfather William Richard Berry was born in 1872 and according to 1901 and 1911 censuses, this was in Limehouse, Middlesex. The only relevant baptism I could find gives his father as Charles (spelt Berrey) whereas on his marriage certificate he is recorded as William. His son, my uncle, was Charles William. The mother was Jane Philpot (I have not found a marriage for these two which I hoped would perhaps add William to his name).
I have found William in the 1891 census at Dorchester Barracks, place of birth Middlesex. In the 1901 and 1911 censuses he gives Limehouse as the birth place.
I have looked for his service records several times at The National Archives in Kew and also online but unfortunately they are missing. I do have a prayer book with the following inscription:
Pte. W.R. Berry
2nd Dorset Regiment
Good Friday
South African Field Force
I have even tried the Dorchester Army office, although not lately. I did find a William Berry in the 1881 census in Stoke Common, Hants, with a birthplace of London, Middlesex. He was the grandson of Henry Philpot but there was also a Frederick Berry, aged 45, unmarried.
There’s another William in the 1881 census, in Gifford Street, Islington, aged nine, born in Middlesex. He’s the grandson of Thomas Berry. I have had many wrong birth certificates over the years so I’m still left with nothing positive. William married my grandmother Florence Annie Ridsdill in 1898.
I have been researching this branch since 1984 so you can guess how frustrated I feel but I’m ever hopeful that something will turn up.’
Stephen says:
‘Thanks for writing in with your question, Betty. I have done a little digging using a few online sources on findmypast.co.uk and have found some new leads for you to follow up.
Firstly, I have found army pension papers for William Richard Berry in the findmypast.co.uk collection of records of men pensioned from the British Army during the 19th century.
The record is composed of five pages. These give various details including a physical description (with tattoos) and a nice outline of his military career. Before he joined the Dorset Regiment on 22 January 1891, he had previously enlisted into the 3rd Battalion Hampshire Regiment, from which he purchased his discharge. I am reliably informed by a military historian colleague that, at that date, discharge could be purchased for £10 within the first three months.
At the time, £10 would presumably have been a tidy sum (especially as he was only 18 years and one month old when he joined the Dorsets, and is described as a labourer). Perhaps army life suited him in the long run, however, as he subsequently served 12 years with the Dorsets and then, in 1903, signed up for a further four years’ service in the Army Reserve, before discharge on 21 January 1907.
Most of his service was at home, but he did serve overseas in the Second Anglo-Boer War, from November 1899 to June 1900. For this, he was awarded the Queen’s South Africa Medal, the latter with two clasps – Tugela Heights (fought during February 1900) and the Relief of Ladysmith (1 March 1900). You can easily search the internet for these two actions to find out more.
This is all interesting information, but there are two other facts to extract from these so-called ‘Chelsea Pensioner’ service papers.
Firstly, upon enlistment into the Dorset Regiment, William’s place of birth is given as Bishopstoke, Hampshire, but then struck out and replaced with London, Middlesex (the correction is initialled by the recruiting officer). This could of course have been a simple clerical error (the form was completed on behalf of the soldier, not by him) but I do not think so – see below…
More significantly, on the fifth page, the column 12 for next of kin is completed with the details of an unmarried sister, Mary Jane Berry, of 11 Harbe[r]son Road, Balham in London (she is later struck out following the marriage of William in 1898, as from that point his wife was of course his next of kin). Note that this address falls under Streatham in census returns. In the 1891 census, at this address are Henry and Emily Phillpott and one Mary Merry (sic – presumably an error by the census enumerator) – the last named being the Phillpotts’ 24-year old niece, born in Bishopstoke, Hampshire. The head of household Henry Phillpott is also from Bishopstoke. I note that you refer to a Jane Philpot in your emailed question. To view this image, go to findmypast.co.uk’s census reference search and search under the following citation: RG12 piece 455 folio 60 page 13.
Now if you search the 1881 census for the siblings Mary and William Richard Berry, you come across the following entry in Winchester: RG11 piece 1234 folio 66 page 27. Here a widowed Henry Philpott is with his son William Philpott, his unmarried stepson Frederick Berry, his granddaughter Mary J Berry (born Bishopstoke) and his grandson William Berry (born London, Middlesex). This is certainly the right family.
Track back to 1871 and look at another Winchester district census return – reference RG10 piece 1213 folio 54 page 7 for Stoke Common in Bishopstoke. Here Henry and Ann Philpot are in residence with unmarried sons William, Henry and George Philpot, unmarried 19-year old ‘son-in-law’ (meaning step-son) Richard Berry and grandchildren Mary J and Walter W Berry (aged four months and 11 months respectively, both born in Bishopstoke). Walter W is another sibling of your William Richard, while Richard would be William Richard’s uncle – William Richard himself won’t be born for another two or three years.
For the 1861 census, the citation for this family is RG9 piece 694 folio 62 page 29. Here Henry and Ann Phillpott are with his mother Elizabeth Phillpott and their children William, Mary and Henry Phillpott, together with 13-year old ‘daughter-in-law’ (step-daughter) Jane Berry and 9-year-old ‘son-in-law’ (step-son) Richard Berry.
You will need to examine all these records very carefully to piece together what is quite a complicated family structure. It is clear that Henry Phil(l)pot(t) married Ann(e) Berry in 1859, and that both had children from previous relationships – Henry had sons William and Mary; Ann(e) had children Frederick, Jane and Richard; while together they had Henry Jnr and George.
It is possible that Ann(e)’s children were born illegitimately – I think she is the Ann Berry with 5-year-old Frederick in the 1841 census at census ref HO107 piece 404 book 10 page 5. It is also possible, although I haven’t been able to prove it, that Ann(e)’s daughter Jane Berry, the step-daughter of Henry Phil(l)pot(t), was a single mother with children Mary Jane, Walter W and William Richard. You might be able to start proving or disproving this by getting the birth certificate of Mary Jane Berry – what would appear to be her birth was registered in June quarter 1866 in Winchester registration district (volume 2C, page 103).
Good luck with your research!’
If you’d like to send your question to Stephen, please register or opt to receive newsletters in ‘my account’. Stephen only has time to answer a couple of queries each month but if yours wasn’t answered this time, you could be lucky next month!
More...
Please note: This post has originated from a news feed from an external website.
Family Tree Forum neither endorses nor is responsible for the views of the author or any other content.