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foxyloxy
23-05-13, 11:18
Long story, which I will summerise. Via a family story when I was young I was told a paternal Great Uncle by marriage was an ophan, having lost paternal grandfather never knew my paternal Grandmother ( she died when my dad was 4 so he had no siblings then lost my maternal grandfather and dad very quickly I too felt very alone and this stayed with me for many many years and eventually I decided to research and see what I could find out thinking all his life he must have felt like I did which was not very nice.
I had a great connection to Uncle Fred and I saw he and Aunt Elsie every week, they had no children she frightened me to death however he had time for me and time when you are an only child with a mum who ran her businesses was speical, so Uncle Fred was very speical.

His name was Frederick Tooby I was told his 'real' name was Thwaites, but when his parents died he went to live with neighbours and used their surname, so my hunt began

Frederick Charles Tooby born 29 Apr 1892 24 Eton Street Camden Regents Park London bap 4 June 1892 St Marks Camden London his parents William Tooby and Lousia Thwaites London:question: was surprise number 1, number 2 was the surnames

William Tooby born Daventry Northamptonshire 1Q 1864, 1871, 1881 lived in Daventry
Lousia Thwaites born 11 July 1866 Weedon Daventry, 1871, 1881 lived in Daventry
They married in London in 1Q 1889. Both in London in 1891. William joined the Met Police warrant number 74678 on 29 July 1889 his death is registered 2Q 1894, BUT he left the Met on 24 Sept 1894 his last posting was to S Division as a PC ( confused:question:)

He and his mum moved back to Daventry and lived togther and/or separtly with her Thwaites family, Louisa died 20 July 1925 probate 11 Sept 1925 in her Will leaving Uncle Fred £223 18 shillings and 9 pence by then a married man from 1923 in Leicester. I have his military information, his work 1911 census.

The point being family stories can be fairy stories, there was 'some' truth but being an ophaned child was not one of them and that 'being orphaned' certainly drove me to find out, helped by an unusual name none of these people are 'my family' in reality but they certainly are part of my weave of family history ( if that makes sense):)

BUT how can someone die in 2Q 1894 and yet still be in the Met in Sept 1894:question:

I suspect William died 'on duty' and I do not have his dead cert which I know is the way to find out how he died..can't afford it at the mo nor do I have subscription access to any websites or live in England so don't have access to the records offices ..........So any ideas, any help with any further information would be great.

I have written this several times and deleted it several times wondering if I should post...but here goes:p

margaretmarch
23-05-13, 11:35
All very intriguing but as you say family stories are often small part truth and the rest confused memory/knowledge passed down the ages!!

Have a look at this site http://www.policememorial.org.uk/ for police officers dying on duty. The England Roll only starts in 1946 so you will have to enquire about him.

It may be his date of discharge from the MET is more to do with a notional last day for instance when I left the Civil Service I actually stopped work on 31 may but my last day of service for the records was 30 June because of holiday entitlement etc.

Margaret

foxyloxy
23-05-13, 11:48
Hi Margaret
Thank you for the link I will certainly contact them. It also made me think outside the box and search for this http://www.met.police.uk/history/remembrance2.htm but there is only one who is not William Tooby

"I actually stopped work on 31 may but my last day of service for the records was 30 June because of holiday entitlement etc." Did they have employment laws/entitlement to holiday pay in 1894? I need to have a look and see but it certainly answers a 'why' if they did

margaretmarch
23-05-13, 11:56
Hi Margaret
Thank you for the link I will certainly contact them. It also made me think outside the box and search for this http://www.met.police.uk/history/remembrance2.htm but there is only one who is not William Tooby

"I actually stopped work on 31 may but my last day of service for the records was 30 June because of holiday entitlement etc." Did they have employment laws/entitlement to holiday pay in 1894? I need to have a look and see but it certainly answers a 'why' if they did

Not so much holiday entitlement as such but some other reason not known to us that would make his end date later than his death. I can't offhand think of a reason but there must be something!
Margaret

margaretmarch
23-05-13, 12:00
Looking at the Remembrance List I wonder if William died whilst a serving officer but not from something relating to his duties such as bronchitis or whatever.

Margaret

annswabey
23-05-13, 12:05
You can download the Met Police register free of charge from the National Archives website if you haven't already done so - it's part of the Digital Microfilm series. His entry says Died, with no date given, although, as you say, date of leaving is given as 24/9/1894. The TNA ref is MEPO4/340 and his entry is on page 98

AntonyM
23-05-13, 12:07
William TOOBY joined the Met Police on 29/7/1889 - His details can be found in the MPS Register which can be downloaded (free) from The National Archives - Ref MEPO 4/363.

He was 25 when he joined - his date of birth is listed as 22/7/1864 in Daventry. There is a physical description, 5' 7 1/2", 11st 12llbs, fresh complexion, blue eyes and light brown hair with a small cicatrix (scar) over his right eye. His previous trade is a Labourer, he is married, no children, and apparently previously served for 8 years in the Royal Artillery, being discharged on 20/2/1889.

His date of removal from the force is recorded as "Died 23-9-94", his death is registered in Q3 of 1894 in St Pancras Registration District, London (Vol 1B p12)

Antony
(ex MPS)

foxyloxy
23-05-13, 12:07
I think you are correct as that is very possible. I think I 'assumed in the line of duty' as he was only 30 years old

margaretmarch
23-05-13, 12:13
William TOOBY joined the Met Police on 29/7/1889 - His details can be found in the MPS Register which can be downloaded (free) from The National Archives - Ref MEPO 4/363.

He was 25 when he joined - his date of birth is listed as 22/7/1864 in Daventry. There is a physical description, 5' 7 1/2", 11st 12llbs, fresh complexion, blue eyes and light brown hair with a small cicatrix (scar) over his right eye. His previous trade is a Labourer, he is married, no children, and apparently previously served for 8 years in the Royal Artillery, being discharged on 20/2/1889.

His date of removal from the force is recorded as "Died 23-9-94", his death is registered in Q3 of 1894 in St Pancras Registration District, London (Vol 1B p12)

Antony
(ex MPS)

Well that's interesting as he did have a son so I wonder why that wasn't noted.

Margaret

lennon2011
23-05-13, 12:14
Can I ask how you traced his warrant number please?
William joined the Met Police warrant number 74678 on 29 July 1889

AntonyM
23-05-13, 12:15
Well that's interesting as he did have a son so I wonder why that wasn't noted.

Margaret

Not on the date he joined (1889), if Frederick was born 1892.

foxyloxy
23-05-13, 12:16
annswabey & (http://www.familytreeforum.com/member.php/2301-annswabey) AntonyM (http://www.familytreeforum.com/member.php/16290-AntonyM)

Thank you for that, it certainly seems to be the same man, 'but' no children makes me think "Do I have the right man:question:"
Yes just checked on my information he did die 3Q (my miss information)

"previous trade is a Labourer.........apparently previously served for 8 years in the Royal Artillery, being discharged on 20/2/1889" All new information Thank you

margaretmarch
23-05-13, 12:18
Not on the date he joined (1889), if Frederick was born 1892.

Oh right I was thinking it was record at his death. Would his wife have got a pension?

Margaret

AntonyM
23-05-13, 12:20
His military retirement papers are available (11 pages) via FindMyPast.

He served in Egypt in 1882 and was awarded the Egyptian War Medal "with clasp for Tel-el-Kabir".

He married Louisa THWAITES at St John the Evangelist, Westminster on 31/3/1889, witnesses Thomas Arnold and Phoebe Thwaites.

foxyloxy
23-05-13, 12:23
Can I ask how you traced his warrant number please?

I have to say not sure I have looked at so much, but it would have been from a 'reputable' source and I suspect in earlier research from the very same National Archive information which I have been reminded of I just didn't realise/read I could download his file

lennon2011
23-05-13, 12:25
I have to say not sure I have looked at so much, but it would have been from a 'reputable' source and I suspect in earlier research from the very same National Archive information which I have been reminded of I just didn't realise/read I could download his file

Ah well, I have a census & 2 baptism records that list my 2X Great Granddad as a Constable but I haven't found any more proof.

foxyloxy
23-05-13, 12:32
Ah well, I have a census & 2 baptism records that list my 2X Great Granddad as a Constable but I haven't found any more proof.

Another ' not my family' line ( this seems to be a habit;D of mine) that was very interesting so I continued to research one was a PC in a village and I contacted the local History group and the people that ran it had his old note book and sent me lots of scans of any mention of 'names' I was looking for, on the inside cover was his number/details so that is how I got his.......

I blame my 'non family' research wanderings on have very ordinary ancestry:p who were born, lived and died in the same village and were neither rich or rogue, well thats my story and I am sticking to it:o

lennon2011
23-05-13, 12:35
We do have our own myth involving a Phillips murderer and a Thomas policeman, i've found proof of a policeman on the wrong side.
Robert's son George married Emily Thomas making it more exciting.

foxyloxy
23-05-13, 12:36
His military retirement papers are available (11 pages) via FindMyPast.

He served in Egypt in 1882 and was awarded the Egyptian War Medal "with clasp for Tel-el-Kabir".

He married Louisa THWAITES at St John the Evangelist, Westminster on 31/3/1889, witnesses Thomas Arnold and Phoebe Thwaites.

Oh what a surprise, thankfully I used the quote facility and can see the additional information you have added...I was going to say 'noted' as and when I can afford to use FMP
Thankyou for that

foxyloxy
23-05-13, 12:40
"He married Louisa THWAITES at St John the Evangelist, Westminster on 31/3/1889, witnesses Thomas Arnold and Phoebe Thwaites."

It is the right man as Phoebe Thwaites was his mother in law, not sure who Thomas Arnold was

margaretmarch
23-05-13, 14:06
I have sent you a PM.
Margaret

Darksecretz
23-05-13, 14:12
Not so much holiday entitlement as such but some other reason not known to us that would make his end date later than his death. I can't offhand think of a reason but there must be something!
Margaret

maybe something to do with a pension?? how long he served in the police]

margaretmarch
23-05-13, 14:15
maybe something to do with a pension?? how long he served in the police]

This was actually resolved as not an issue because it was the quarter his death was thought to be registered which turned out to be wrong :) so nothing to puzzle over.

Margaret

Darksecretz
23-05-13, 14:18
mmm I saw, that'll teach me NOT to jump in before reading the whole thread!!....lol :emb:

foxyloxy
23-05-13, 17:09
mmm I saw, that'll teach me NOT to jump in before reading the whole thread!!....lol :emb:

Oh I feel like I am in good company...I do too

Margaret Thank you just worked in and got your PM so sent you an email 'before' I read the thread;D

margaretmarch
23-05-13, 18:40
I've had another go at sending you the stuff by email.

Margaret