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colin taylor
22-05-13, 16:06
It may be that I am behind the times but I have only just noticed that they have now removed the restriction to see the infirmity column

lennon2011
22-05-13, 16:08
Yeah it's an update that happened last month I think, I haven't gone through all of mine yet to see what's changed.

kylejustin
23-05-13, 03:53
that's a bit late isn't it? it should have been done and waiting for upload at the end of 2011.

Guy
23-05-13, 06:01
What seems to have been forgotten is that to show the redacted column the census provider had to rework the database.
It is not simply removing the covering but re-indexing the entire census for the new images.
This is almost as big a job as providing the census in the first place.

It could net be done prior to the beginning of 2012 (not 2011) because the images were not released to providers prior to that.

The real question is why was the complete column redacted in the first place, when to do so was unlawful.
The information Commissioner ruled on the subject in 2006 and required that each entry was viewed on its own merits and that if the entry contained sensitive information (under the terms of the act) that information could be redacted.

Cheers
Guy

margaretmarch
23-05-13, 07:32
What seems to have been forgotten is that to show the redacted column the census provider had to rework the database.
It is not simply removing the covering but re-indexing the entire census for the new images.
This is almost as big a job as providing the census in the first place.

It could net be done prior to the beginning of 2012 (not 2011) because the images were not released to providers prior to that.

The real question is why was the complete column redacted in the first place, when to do so was unlawful.
The information Commissioner ruled on the subject in 2006 and required that each entry was viewed on its own merits and that if the entry contained sensitive information (under the terms of the act) that information could be redacted.

Cheers
Guy

Doing the whole column would have been the cheapest option and I expect they decided simply to wait for individuals to complain and for those instances give the full image.

Margaret

lennon2011
23-05-13, 11:34
Daft question here but does this mean that 2021 will see the 1921 census go online or will we not be that lucky?

Elaine ..Spain
23-05-13, 11:37
I think it is due to be released in 2022 - presumably it then has to be digitised, indexed etc.

margaretmarch
23-05-13, 11:39
Daft question here but does this mean that 2021 will see the 1921 census go online or will we not be that lucky?

At the moment they do not propose to even publish the 1921 census due to legal constraints but people are working on challenging that so we will have to wait and see!

Margaret

margaretmarch
23-05-13, 11:40
I think it is due to be released in 2022 - it then has to be digitised, indexed etc.

Have they changed their minds as I thought they weren't going to publish it???
Margaret

Olde Crone Holden
23-05-13, 11:40
I know for a fact that my grandmother was profoundly deaf from birth. There is nothing in the infirmities column to suggest this, so the fact that there is nothing in the column when revealed doesn't mean the person didn't have an infirmity!

OC

lennon2011
23-05-13, 11:41
Okies, won't be holding my hopes up then (besides granddad might not be on it with being born in August of that year)

Elaine ..Spain
23-05-13, 11:44
Have they changed their minds as I thought they weren't going to publish it???
Margaret


Quote from the 1911census.org.uk (http://www.1911census.org.uk/1921.htm) website:


The stated government position from the ONS is "its intention to release the entirety of the 1921 census returns in 2022, in accordance with the non-statutory '100 year rule' which was adopted to reflect this undertaking of confidentiality".

... hopefully current and accurate! :)

Elaine ..Spain
23-05-13, 11:45
Okies, won't be holding my hopes up then (besides granddad might not be on it with being born in August of that year)

1921 census was taken on the night of Sunday 19th June 1921. :(

lennon2011
23-05-13, 11:58
Ah well, at least i'll have confirmation of were i think he was born though. That's something at least.

margaretmarch
23-05-13, 12:04
Ah well, at least i'll have confirmation of were i think he was born though. That's something at least.

How will the census give you that?

Margaret

lennon2011
23-05-13, 12:17
Because if Granddad was born in August his family may have been living in the street he was born in (The Street is still in existence today)
He did have siblings that I can get the information from, or his parents :D

margaretmarch
23-05-13, 14:13
Because if Granddad was born in August his family may have been living in the street he was born in (The Street is still in existence today)
He did have siblings that I can get the information from, or his parents :D

on the other hand they may not!
Margaret

Guy
23-05-13, 17:59
Quote from the 1911census.org.uk (http://www.1911census.org.uk/1921.htm) website:



... hopefully current and accurate! :)

That is their office policy which is totally unlawful.
By which I mean if they release the 1921 Census in 2022 they will have broken the law as there is no law that allows it to be released. If however they can come up with an argument to allow them to release it in 2022 they will still have broken the law by not allowing access today as required by the Freedom of Information Act 2000.

The 1920 Census Act as amended by the Census (Confidentiality) Act 1991 has made it unlawful to ever release any census taken under the 1920 Census Act
See-
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~framland/acts/1920%20Census%20Act.htm click on the link at the foot to be taken to the Census (Confidentiality) Act 1991.

In addition the Freedom of Information Act 2000 makes the Census Information exempt data meaning it can never be released without a new Act of Parliament.
If the data is not exempt then it could be released today.
Cheers
Guy

Elaine ..Spain
23-05-13, 18:49
.. so Guy, does that mean that Margaret was correct, and the census will not be released, unless there is a change in the law?

Uncle John
23-05-13, 19:22
It's entirely possible that the people who wrote the note were not aware of all the legal ramifications. Guy's explanation gives a flavour of just what a legal tangle is involved.

kylejustin
24-05-13, 08:29
i thought they were not going to release it because it was kept in salford, and the census got water damaged.

Olde Crone Holden
24-05-13, 21:13
kyle

the 1851 census was water damaged for large areas of Lancashire including Salford, but I've never heard that the 1921 census was kept there -----whereabouts? Normally census are kept in depositories in far flung places until they are needed to be released.

OC

kylejustin
25-05-13, 04:19
not sure where i got it, must have been an idea from information on here at some point.

margaretmarch
25-05-13, 07:07
kyle

the 1851 census was water damaged for large areas of Lancashire including Salford, but I've never heard that the 1921 census was kept there -----whereabouts? Normally census are kept in depositories in far flung places until they are needed to be released.

OC

There used to be a repository in Heywood, North Manchester when I worked in the Civil Service and there are several others around the country, can't recall where though.
Margaret

Olde Crone Holden
25-05-13, 10:29
Ah, right Margaret!

I was under the impression that census were stored in salt caves in Cheshire. Perhaps that was only the 1911?

OC

margaretmarch
25-05-13, 10:57
Ah, right Margaret!

I was under the impression that census were stored in salt caves in Cheshire. Perhaps that was only the 1911?

OC

Well probably right! but I do know there was a big stationery and file store in Heywood as they periodically sent me files that had reached their 50 year date to consider whether to keep any longer! The stationery bit used to send forms that had got down to a low level and ask if we wanted any more printed - we usually didn't as we had stopped using them decades before and never told the stores!!

It was fascinating at times to see what had gone on 50 years previously on the subjects I was responsible for - the language and manner of writing was so different then - very proper!

Margaret

lennon2011
25-05-13, 20:30
Hope this helps: http://www.1911census.org.uk/1921.htm there's a bit about the 1921 Census there.

Note: It was the 1931 Census that was destroyed, by a fire.


On the night of Saturday 19 December 1942, there was a fire at a store in Hayes, Middlesex. The store, the responsibility of the Office of Works, contained a large amount of furniture but in addition it contained the census records for England & Wales for 1931, that is the whole of the schedules, enumeration books and plans. They were all completely destroyed.

(Note that the census for Scotland was not affected by this fire since it was stored separately in Edinburgh).

Olde Crone Holden
25-05-13, 23:22
Margaret

Yes, I remember the archaic language! I worked as a temp in the Civil Service for a while and can remember "Yours obediently" "your humble servant" and other such creep-talk!

OC

margaretmarch
26-05-13, 00:01
Margaret

Yes, I remember the archaic language! I worked as a temp in the Civil Service for a while and can remember "Yours obediently" "your humble servant" and other such creep-talk!

OC
Yes, you're right and always referring to people by their surname or prefixing their title in a memo when they at the desk next to you!

Margaret

Guy
26-05-13, 06:48
.. so Guy, does that mean that Margaret was correct, and the census will not be released, unless there is a change in the law?

Yes, but if you want any more census released the best way is to deluge as many MPs with requests for the release as often as possible.
Cheers
Guy

Elaine ..Spain
26-05-13, 07:15
Yes, but if you want any more census released the best way is to deluge as many MPs with requests for the release as often as possible.
Cheers
Guy
Guy, I know you have campaigned previously on census issues - do you have anything current concerning the release of future censuses?

Guy
29-05-13, 12:38
I have been concerned at my answer to this thread which was based on the situation as it stood in 2006 when I got the Information Commissioner’s ruling on the 1911 census.

I posted without checking if or how the law had/s changed in the intervening years.
This resulted in me giving wrong information for which I apologise to all concerned.

The current situation has changed.

The release of census taken under the 1920 Census Act as amended by the Census (Confidentiality) Act 1991 now comes under the legislation enacted by the Statistics and Registration Service Act 2007.

One interesting development of this is that pre-release access may be granted as allowed for by Part 1, Section 11 of the Registration Service Act 2007
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2007/18/section/11

There are of course safeguards and exclusions such as Part 1 Section 39 but these are not insurmountable.
In fact Part 1 Section 7 (5) is practically asking for a public demand for better access to the records –

“(5)In this Part references to good practice in relation to official statistics includes ensuring their accessibility.”

In view of this a concerted effort could result in the release of many census with sensitive information redacted.
Cheers
Guy

margaretmarch
29-05-13, 16:36
I have been concerned at my answer to this thread which was based on the situation as it stood in 2006 when I got the Information Commissioner’s ruling on the 1911 census.

I posted without checking if or how the law had/s changed in the intervening years.
This resulted in me giving wrong information for which I apologise to all concerned.

The current situation has changed.

The release of census taken under the 1920 Census Act as amended by the Census (Confidentiality) Act 1991 now comes under the legislation enacted by the Statistics and Registration Service Act 2007.

One interesting development of this is that pre-release access may be granted as allowed for by Part 1, Section 11 of the Registration Service Act 2007
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2007/18/section/11

There are of course safeguards and exclusions such as Part 1 Section 39 but these are not insurmountable.
In fact Part 1 Section 7 (5) is practically asking for a public demand for better access to the records –

“(5)In this Part references to good practice in relation to official statistics includes ensuring their accessibility.”

In view of this a concerted effort could result in the release of many census with sensitive information redacted.
Cheers
Guy

Do you know how we could start a petition so send to the Government to get this moving?

Margaret

Olde Crone Holden
29-05-13, 17:12
With respect, Margaret, the government never takes any notice of a petition about anything. It would need MILLIONS of signatures before they would even pretend to consider it.

I think Guy will agree with me that any action has to be more specific, such as lobbying one's own MP, or even the government minister concerned with census matters. Guy's successful action in getting the 1911 census released early was only due to him making a dogged nuisance of himself (apologies Guy, you know what I mean - if you had merely started a petition they could have happily ignored you).

OC

lennon2011
29-05-13, 17:22
I'm just going to say a site here and see what happens: Change.org

I get tons of Petitions in my emails from that site.

Olde Crone Holden
29-05-13, 17:46
Lennon

The government set up an e-petition site in order to stop them being sent reams of paper, lol. They always acknowledge the e-petition and reply to it....but it NEVER changes anything.

Unless someone can tell me of a petition which this (or the previous) government acted on and changed the law accordingly?

OC

lennon2011
29-05-13, 17:49
Ahh right, my bad.. :emb:

Guy
29-05-13, 19:00
With respect, Margaret, the government never takes any notice of a petition about anything. It would need MILLIONS of signatures before they would even pretend to consider it.

I think Guy will agree with me that any action has to be more specific, such as lobbying one's own MP, or even the government minister concerned with census matters. Guy's successful action in getting the 1911 census released early was only due to him making a dogged nuisance of himself (apologies Guy, you know what I mean - if you had merely started a petition they could have happily ignored you).

OC

Yes, spot on OC, I have little faith in petitions.
I have found writing to MPs works far better. If a number of people bombard MPs with letters and or emails they take far more notice even if it is just to put a stop to the stream of letters and emails.
If possible attend MP surgeries at every possible occasion and keep asking for access, above all write and email the board members-

Mr Andrew Dilnot CBE - Chair (http://www.statisticsauthority.gov.uk/about-the-authority/meet-the-board/andrew-dilnot-cbe/index.html)
Professor Sir Adrian Smith FRS - Deputy Chair (ONS) (http://www.statisticsauthority.gov.uk/about-the-authority/meet-the-board/professor-adrian-smith-frs/index.html)
Professor David Rhind CBE FRS FBA - Deputy Chair (Official Statistics) (http://www.statisticsauthority.gov.uk/about-the-authority/meet-the-board/professor-david-rhind/index.html)
Dr Colette Bowe - Non-Executive Director (http://www.statisticsauthority.gov.uk/about-the-authority/meet-the-board/colette-bowe/index.html)
Mr Partha Dasgupta – Non-Executive Director (http://www.statisticsauthority.gov.uk/about-the-authority/meet-the-board/partha-dasgupta/index.html)
Ms Carolyn Fairbairn - Non-Executive Director (http://www.statisticsauthority.gov.uk/about-the-authority/meet-the-board/carolyn-fairbairn/index.html)
Dame Moira Gibb DBE - Non-Executive Director (http://www.statisticsauthority.gov.uk/about-the-authority/meet-the-board/moira-gibb-cbe-fcgi/index.html)
Professor David Hand - Non-Executive Director (http://www.statisticsauthority.gov.uk/about-the-authority/meet-the-board/professor-david-hand-obe-fba/index.html)
Dr David Levy - Non-Executive Director (http://www.statisticsauthority.gov.uk/about-the-authority/meet-the-board/dr-david-levy/index.html)

Ms Jil Matheson – National Statistician (http://www.statisticsauthority.gov.uk/about-the-authority/meet-the-board/jil-matheson/index.html)
Mr Richard Alldritt - Head of Assessment (http://www.statisticsauthority.gov.uk/about-the-authority/meet-the-board/richard-alldritt/index.html)
Mr Glen Watson – Director General (ONS) (http://www.statisticsauthority.gov.uk/about-the-authority/meet-the-board/glen-watson/index.html)


Cheers
Guy

Olde Crone Holden
29-05-13, 19:59
Lennon

no, not bad! You aren't to know unless you have sat and watched the useless petitions that have been started over the years, like I have!

(Anyone else remember that really embarrassing petition which demanded the immediate release of the 1931 census? About 8,000 people signed it, showing their appalling ignorance and total lack of research - a quick google will tell you that the 1931 census does not exist, destroyed by fire in WW2.)

OC

lennon2011
29-05-13, 21:38
Can't the same have been said for 1941? Not destroyed but more along the facts that it didn't get done due to the national card things?

kylejustin
30-05-13, 06:55
i'm sure the 1941 was never done, but there have been members here who successfully got the information from those registration cards.

Olde Crone Holden
30-05-13, 11:24
To be pedantic, the 1941 census was not taken because it was felt that the information gathered would be too valuable to the enemy should they invade. Also, as so many men were away from the UK, the census results would have little value for their primary purpose, which is future planning.

OC