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lennon2011
17-05-13, 23:12
I'm sure most of you remember me telling you that one of Granddad Lennon's sister's had done the tree but died before anything could be found, well I found a little more information today. It turns out that she had been focusing on her Dad's side of the family but she died before she could actually show Great Uncle * it. So I thought I might surprise him a little by finding his family for him. I always thought that Cecilia (their Mother) had a different child with every man but it turns out that Granddad and Edward (dead) may have shared the same Father and the rest of the children shared the same Father. However I've put Vickers as the Surname with Lennon as the mother's maiden name and only gotten 4 children, one girl is missing.

William Black Vickers, I searched Ancestry for that specific name and got a death- http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=onsdeath93&h=8839799&ti=5538&indiv=try&gss=pt&ssrc=pt_t45725931_p6515911179_kpidz0q3d6515911179z 0q26pgz0q3d32768z0q26pgplz0q3dpid

Dad has confirmed that it is the Father, the tricky part is that I've gotten a birth hint of this: http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=onsbirth84&h=44664474&ti=5538&indiv=try&gss=pt&ssrc=gr_t45725931_p6515911179_ktidz0q3d45725931z0q 26pidz0q3d6515911179z0q26hidz0q3d50257421764z0q26d bidz0q3d8782z0q26rpidz0q3d44664474z0q26ssrcz0q3dgr z0q26pgz0q3d32768z0q252c32782z0q26pgplz0q3dpidz0q2 52ctidz0q257cpidz0q257chidz0q257cdbidz0q257crpidz0 q257cssrcz0q26pgpsz0q3d6515911179_h50257421764 but * said today that his Dad was born in Staines or something like that. What do I go with?

Elaine ..Spain
18-05-13, 06:59
Those two links don't match up.
The death registration for William Black Vickers show a birth date of 29 Oct 1914.
The birth registration for William Vickers shows a birth in 1916 1st quarter.

If you know the death registration is correct then I would ignore the birth registration.

.. other than that, I am confused! Who is William Vickers and what exactly are you looking for ?????

Chrissie Smiff
18-05-13, 10:24
Have you found a death for William? My guess would be possibly this one - William Vickers - born 15th November 1915 - Died Feb 1984 aged 68 - Durham Western, Durham ref Volume 1 Page 1712.

Sorry, I have just realised that you said that you knew 'your' William was William Black Vickers. Back to the drawing board.

Darksecretz
18-05-13, 10:25
to me it looks like WB Vickers is the father to Grandad/Great uncle **

so the next step would be praps a marriage? [IF they married!] and/or a birth cert for WBV.. [but, with a name like Black as a middle name it shouts at me illegitimacy] [so he could have been born/registered William BLACK]

lennon2011
18-05-13, 11:35
Sorry guys I was in a rush because 11 is the time that the Laptop comes off.

Granddad and Edward Lennon MAY share the same father but registered in Cecilia's name.

* and the four girls are the children of WBV and Cecilia.

I did a search in Ancestry with just the name as it's so odd. Forname: William and Surname: Black Vickers brought nothing up but using Black as a middle name brought the death up, that death gave me the birth hint which is why I was so confused. * has the Black Vickers part and he's passed it onto his children and little Grandson (has the oddest name of them all)

Dad said last night that WBV & Cecilia did get married.

I've found his first marriage and that's in the Black name http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?rank=1&new=1&ssrc=pt_t45725931_p6515911179&MSAV=1&msT=1&gss=angs-c&gsfn=William+&gsfn_x=1&gsln=Vickers&gsln_x=1&msbdy=1914&msbpn__ftp=Stockton-on-Tees%2c+Durham%2c+England&msbpn=1652410&msbpn_PInfo=8-%7c0%7c0%7c3257%7c3251%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c5263%7c165241 0%7c0%7c&msddy=1990&msdpn__ftp=Central+Cleveland%2c+Cleveland%2c+Engla nd&cpxt=1&uidh=6gd&msbdm=10&msddm=5&cp=11&mssng0=Cecilia&mssns0=Lennon&pcat=BMD_MARRIAGE&h=60185159&db=ONSmarriage1984&indiv=1&ppvrjurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fgl%3dBMD_MARRIAGE%26rank%3d1%26new %3d1%26ssrc%3dpt_t45725931_p6515911179%26MSAV%3d1% 26msT%3d1%26gss%3dangs-c%26gsfn%3dWilliam%2b%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dVicker s%26gsln_x%3d1%26msbdy%3d1914%26msbpn__ftp%3dStock ton-on-Tees%252c%2bDurham%252c%2bEngland%26msbpn%3d165241 0%26msbpn_PInfo%3d8-%257c0%257c0%257c3257%257c3251%257c0%257c0%257c0%2 57c5263%257c1652410%257c0%257c%26msddy%3d1990%26ms dpn__ftp%3dCentral%2bCleveland%252c%2bCleveland%25 2c%2bEngland%26cpxt%3d1%26uidh%3d6gd%26msbdm%3d10% 26msddm%3d5%26cp%3d11%26mssng0%3dCecilia%26mssns0% 3dLennon%26so%3d2

Chrissie Smiff
18-05-13, 11:44
I daren't look at your links Sarah because they are in the new search format and everytime I do it makes my links revert to new search and I have to go through the process of putting it back to old search again.

Janet in Yorkshire
18-05-13, 11:48
That can't be right, a marriage in 1922, if he was born 1914/1916?????????

Elaine ..Spain
18-05-13, 11:52
Dad said last night that WBV & Cecilia did get married.

I've found his first marriage and that's in the Black name http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?rank=1&new=1&ssrc=pt_t45725931_p6515911179&MSAV=1&msT=1&gss=angs-c&gsfn=William+&gsfn_x=1&gsln=Vickers&gsln_x=1&msbdy=1914&msbpn__ftp=Stockton-on-Tees%2c+Durham%2c+England&msbpn=1652410&msbpn_PInfo=8-%7c0%7c0%7c3257%7c3251%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c5263%7c165241 0%7c0%7c&msddy=1990&msdpn__ftp=Central+Cleveland%2c+Cleveland%2c+Engla nd&cpxt=1&uidh=6gd&msbdm=10&msddm=5&cp=11&mssng0=Cecilia&mssns0=Lennon&pcat=BMD_MARRIAGE&h=60185159&db=ONSmarriage1984&indiv=1&ppvrjurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fgl%3dBMD_MARRIAGE%26rank%3d1%26new %3d1%26ssrc%3dpt_t45725931_p6515911179%26MSAV%3d1% 26msT%3d1%26gss%3dangs-c%26gsfn%3dWilliam%2b%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dVicker s%26gsln_x%3d1%26msbdy%3d1914%26msbpn__ftp%3dStock ton-on-Tees%252c%2bDurham%252c%2bEngland%26msbpn%3d165241 0%26msbpn_PInfo%3d8-%257c0%257c0%257c3257%257c3251%257c0%257c0%257c0%2 57c5263%257c1652410%257c0%257c%26msddy%3d1990%26ms dpn__ftp%3dCentral%2bCleveland%252c%2bCleveland%25 2c%2bEngland%26cpxt%3d1%26uidh%3d6gd%26msbdm%3d10% 26msddm%3d5%26cp%3d11%26mssng0%3dCecilia%26mssns0% 3dLennon%26so%3d2

Sarah, how can that be his first marriage - dated 1922, yet the death registration you have found gives his date of birth as 1914.


SNAP with Janet !!

lennon2011
18-05-13, 11:53
Oh bleep it. Sorry guys, once again I'm jumping the gun here, mind you there isn't actually a Spouse so maybe it's a transcription? Of to check Stockton Roots & Tees Valley Genealogy.

lennon2011
18-05-13, 12:01
Stockton Roots has 3 marriages between 1920-1990 and the Black one is there to an Annie Clews.

Tees Valley had none matching the names I need so I guess that's out.

I'm wondering if Dad meant that they didn't marry but did live together and registered the children under his name?

Janet in Yorkshire
18-05-13, 12:05
There is a spouse (Clews) on other sites, and also possible children 1922 - 1931. However, apart from 1931 in Durham, the other earlier births were in India, Gibraltar and the West Indies - suggesting perhaps a soldier, or employment as civil servant etc?????

Elaine ..Spain
18-05-13, 12:07
Stockton Roots has 3 marriages between 1920-1990 and the Black one is there to an Annie Clews.



Where on Stockton Roots does it say that William B Vickers was William Black Vickers?

Janet in Yorkshire
18-05-13, 12:08
Does the Stockton Roots entry have Black as William's married name? My sources have only listed the groom as William B (snap, Elaine)

lennon2011
18-05-13, 12:12
I've gone back to their children. 2 were born in Oldham and the other 2 here in Stockton, that still leaves one child to find.

What makes it more difficult is that none of the children liked the names that they were born with. * just shortened his as did Granddad, Oldham 1 changed it to match her Aunt (Mystery solved thread) and Kathleen (Dead, Oldham 2) kept hers the same, the other Stockton one went by her middle name by the looks of it.

I'll happily PM someone the names.

lennon2011
18-05-13, 12:13
Where on Stockton Roots does it say that William B Vickers was William Black Vickers?

It didn't, I matched it with Ancestry and assumed it was Black on Roots aswell.

Elaine ..Spain
18-05-13, 12:16
It didn't, I matched it with Ancestry and assumed it was Black on Roots aswell.

I can't see how you have matched it on Ancestry. The only reference to Black as a middle name that I can see for certain is the death registration - have you (or has anyone else) found another reference that I've missed?
In any case, the William B Vickers marriage in 1922 cannot be him as he was only born in the 1910s.

Have you any other reference to the Black middle name?
Are you 100% certain that the death you found for William Black Vickers is for your William Vickers?

Elaine ..Spain
18-05-13, 12:30
Right .. thanks to a few spare credits I had on SP.

There is a William Black Vickers born 1914 in Cambuslang, Glasgow, Lanarkshire in 1914.

There is a marriage for William Black Vickers to CL in 1945 Glasgow.

lennon2011
18-05-13, 12:31
My Aunt is on her way to drop Dad off so I'll try to ask about William. (He did live near the house that I'm in now which is Hardwick, I can't give a proper address for safety reasons) Scrap that, she's here and I've now got to go and visit another Aunt, * sister, which I'm not looking forwards to at all.

In regards to the missing child- she is must be registered under Vickers as I've just found one of her children's births and it does have Vickers for the Mother's name.

Chrissie Smiff
18-05-13, 12:33
Well done and good thinking Elaine :)

Darksecretz
18-05-13, 12:34
It didn't, I matched it with Ancestry and assumed it was Black on Roots aswell.

Never assume anything, back it up with FACT

Janet in Yorkshire
18-05-13, 12:41
Well done Elaine

lennon2011
18-05-13, 12:43
Cheers Elaine, I guess I just have to stop listening to family members when it comes to family research.

After all * is 63 so the memory will be going by now. :D

New profile pic is Cecilia whereas I thought it was Granddad's oldest child.

margaretmarch
18-05-13, 12:58
Cheers Elaine, I guess I just have to stop listening to family members when it comes to family research. After all * is 63 so the memory will be going by now.

New profile pic is Cecilia whereas I thought it was Granddad's oldest child.

Excuse me!! some of us are that age and much more and memory for distant things is often sharper than for stuff that happened yesterday!

Margaret

Janet in Yorkshire
18-05-13, 13:01
After all * is 63 so the memory will be going by now. :shocked7fl: Oh dear, I do wish that statement had had an accompanying smiley face to show it was meant as a joke.

lennon2011
18-05-13, 13:06
True, I can't remember what I did five minutes ago let alone five years ago and I'm a lot younger than you lot, that's why I'm always changing my signatures- so I remember to research something. The whiteboard above my Laptop is full of dates, names & appointments, the Laptop itself is full of Family History, photos etc and the notebooks are backups of the tree as a safety precaution.

Chrissie Smiff
18-05-13, 13:06
Me too - nothing wrong with MY memory.

lennon2011
18-05-13, 13:06
After all * is 63 so the memory will be going by now. :shocked7fl: Oh dear, I do wish that statement had had an accompanying smiley face to show it was meant as a joke.

I new I'd forgotten something, cheers.

I'm not taking the mick out of your ages here, I'm being truthful about my own forgetfulness. Can we put those pitchforks away now please?

Janet in Yorkshire
18-05-13, 14:47
Well, going back and adding a belated smiley now makes my post look a little silly doesn't it?

Chrissie Smiff
18-05-13, 16:26
Did we ever find Cecilia's death last time we were looking Sarah? Only I have just had a look and there is a death in Cleveland Oct 1985 of a Cecilia Vickers with a birth date of 1st Jan 1922 and that would fit in with a possible birth I found for you at the time on Scotlands People in 1922 Bellshill Lanark.

Chrissie Smiff
18-05-13, 17:00
I've gone back to their children. 2 were born in Oldham and the other 2 here in Stockton, that still leaves one child to find.

What makes it more difficult is that none of the children liked the names that they were born with. * just shortened his as did Granddad, Oldham 1 changed it to match her Aunt (Mystery solved thread) and Kathleen (Dead, Oldham 2) kept hers the same, the other Stockton one went by her middle name by the looks of it.

I'll happily PM someone the names.

I have just been looking at that Mystery solved thread Sarah and I am wondering if you are getting different sides of the family mixed up? The birth and names of those 4 Vickers children fits in with the ones you were trying to find and there is a possible marriage for the first one (born July-Sept 1947) with the same name and middle initial. That name goes well with your dad's comment about a Ginny as my first mother in law was known as Ginny and her first name was J... the same as the Vickers birth in 1947.

lennon2011
19-05-13, 11:25
I have just been looking at that Mystery solved thread Sarah and I am wondering if you are getting different sides of the family mixed up? The birth and names of those 4 Vickers children fits in with the ones you were trying to find and there is a possible marriage for the first one (born July-Sept 1947) with the same name and middle initial. That name goes well with your dad's comment about a Ginny as my first mother in law was known as Ginny and her first name was J... the same as the Vickers birth in 1947.

To make it easier Ginny/J.Lennon is Cecilia's sister ( I had a signature before this one with the slogan "I wish Granddad would stop giving me make belief names, Ginny doesn't exist") Or something similar to it anyway.

The second J.(My surname here)Vickers is Cecilia's Daughter born in Oldham, so that makes six of Cecilia's children (including Granddad & Edward (dead) found)

We were missing the other one but I do remember my Aunt mentioning that none of the children liked the names that they were born with (runs in the family), * shortened his, Kathleen (Died in 2005) kept hers the same, J changed 2 letters around and P.A.V goes by her middle name, anyway last night I asked *'s wife about this myth to be certain and she did say that it was correct and that the other Daughter is named after Cecilia's Mother (we'll call her M) but she goes by something a lot longer & different that has no connection to her birth name at all. So it's M.(My Surname)Vickers. I knew she went by Vickers as I'd traced her children using their Surname and Vickers for the Mother, my theory is that M was born in Scotland just after the wedding that Elaine found.

I also traced all 5 of *'s children and only one of them has the Black part in their name (he gave it to his son when he was born in 2011)

I have Ginny's children & husband. (Might as well call her that as it's only a nickname of sorts, plus she is dead now.)

I have J's child.

I have M's 2 son's and I still need to find Kathleen's (2 are in her Grave and I think there's one more to be found, I can never tell with this family)

Cecilia's death- it's definitely hers as Dad and I visit it every year to place flowers on her grave (I have a picture of it, it's just been replaced with a newer grave)

Elaine ..Spain
19-05-13, 11:50
I knew she went by Vickers as I'd traced her children using their Surname and Vickers for the Mother, my theory is that M was born in Scotland just after the wedding that Elaine found.


Sarah, send me a PM with the name of the missing child and I will see if there is anything on Scotlands People for you.

Update: missing child found on SP - details sent to Lennon.

lennon2011
19-05-13, 12:04
Okies, I'm actually doing a list of what I have through Ancestry (on the lists of people, I did some yesterday for my sister)

lennon2011
19-05-13, 12:39
Thanks for the help everyone and ever so sorry to cause you headaches & so forth.

lennon2011
21-05-13, 16:45
Hmm Mum had a feeling that the Black name came from William's Mum (kinda like what us Phillips had done) so I've searched Scotland's People for a marriage between a Male Vickers and a female Black between 1900-1930. I know that William was born in 1914 so I figured I'd use him as a center point and I've actually found the marriage of a John Vickers to an Elizabeth Black in 1900, Cambuslang, Lanarkshire which is where William was born, does anyone else think that this is merely a coincidence or could I be onto something here?

Darksecretz
21-05-13, 17:09
you won't know until you get Williams birth cert! this will confirm, as you know, the parents names & occupation of the father.

lennon2011
21-05-13, 17:22
I've clicked the image to have a look.

January 2nd 1900

John Vickers (Coal Miner) aged 24, Father- John Vickers (Coal Miner) Mother- Elizabeth Vickers

Elizabeth Black (Domestic Servant) aged 20, Father- *'s name (Coal Miner) Mother- Elizabeth Black

Witness: James Black (Witness) Agnes Murphy (Witness)

Registrar: David Black.