Workhouse baby?

[Vonny North West]

Perhaps somebody with better eyes than me can help with this one. I have the death certificate for my great Aunt Henrietta Marshall, nee (Brotherton) Morris who died in 1905 at St. Mary's Hospital Manchester at the age of 37. From this one fact it puts her year of birth to 1867/68. I have put both former names because on the marriage regristration the name of Brotherton appears as well as Morris. I have searched for a birth coutrywide for Henrietta Morris but nothing appears, however using the name of Brotherton only one birth countrywide appears and that is Henrietta Brotherton b. 13/11/1867 the birth registered on 09/01/1868. The place of birth is Warrington Road Whiston. The original Whiston Hospital was built in 1843 when Prescot Poor Law Union established the Prescot Union Workhouse on Warrington Road, Whiston.
Her father is named as Joseph Brotherton and occupation is down as a wood hoop manufacture, residence of informant is Warrington Road Whiston. Mother's name is Elizabeth Brotherton formerly Capper.
I cannot find a marriage anywhere, so I am assuming that this is a single mother. This doesn't so much bother me, but Henrietta Brotherton/Morris was supposedly the daughter of Annie Morris nee Brotherton who was married to Sampson Morris in 1869. So if this is the only birth of that name at that time, is it possible that the person known as Annie Morris has assumed a new name and identity before marrying? Is this the reason I can't find a record of her birth?
Is it possible to check the records this particular workhouse? How do I find the truth?
Vonny.
Any suggestions would be most welcome.

[JudithM]

I suppose its possible that ELizabeth Brotherton, formerly Capper reinvented herself as Ann Brotherton when she married Sampson but another possibility is that Henrietta was not Annie's daughter but perhaps her niece (Annie could have been Joseph Brotherton's sister) and was taken in by Sampson and Ann and raised as their own.

[Janet in Yorkshire]

I can't see a young Henrietta Brotherton in 1871 census, but there is a Jun qtr 1868 death reg for a Henrietta Brotherton aged 0 yrs in West Derby Lancs. Could this be the baby born in November 1867? I can find Henrietta Morris living with parents Samson & Annie in Gorton Chorlton in 1871. Perhaps this child's birth wasn't registered, or there was a spelling error??

[Vonny North West]

I suppose its possible that ELizabeth Brotherton, formerly Capper reinvented herself as Ann Brotherton when she married Sampson but another possibility is that Henrietta was not Annie's daughter but perhaps her niece (Annie could have been Joseph Brotherton's sister) and was taken in by Sampson and Ann and raised as their own.

Yes, that's interesting, only problem being that I can't find a birth certificate for Annie I cannot prove through the census her proper family. I have found an Elizabeth Capper b.Dec.1846 in Manchester which fits in with Annies age, so that is why I have a question mark on this. Also that lack of a marriage between Joseph and Elizabeth, also Henrietta Brotherton being the only birth found of that name and at that time.
Vonny.

[JudithM]

Ann and Sampson's marriage certificate should give her age at marriage, and father's name and occupation which may help to sort this I suppose.

[Vonny North West]

I can't see a young Henrietta Brotherton in 1871 census, but there is a Jun qtr 1868 death reg for a Henrietta Brotherton aged 0 yrs in West Derby Lancs. Could this be the baby born in November 1867? I can find Henrietta Morris living with parents Samson & Annie in Gorton Chorlton in 1871. Perhaps this child's birth wasn't registered, or there was a spelling error??

I haven't seen that at all, again, why is her marriage quoted with both names and the only birth registered is for the year in question?
Vonny.

[Vonny North West]

Ann and Sampson's marriage certificate should give her age at marriage, and father's name and occupation which may help to sort this I suppose.

In 1869 they married August 28th at Manchester Catherderal, Annie is 21 and Sampson is 25. Her father's name she has put as John Brotherton, joiner, however, she is illiterate and signs her name with a X. Now going through the census, in 1871 her age is recorded as 25 compared to Sampson's age of 26. In 1881 her age is 35 compared to Sampsons of 37, in 1891 while Sampson is in prison his age is put at 46, in 1891 Annie puts her age as 45 and a widow. In 1901 Sampson, now out of prison, is 56 and Annie is now older than him at 57. Sampson dies in 1902 aged 59, but not with Annie, it is his son who is present at the death and no sign of Annie. Just big question marks all over the place. Do you now see my dilemma?

Vonny.

[Olde Crone Holden]

Post edited out - OC talking rubbish again!
Apologies.

OC

[Olde Crone Holden]

Oh, here you are:

Elizabeth Capper to Joseph BrotherSton 1843 St Bride and St Saviour, Liverpool.

EDIT - that would explain Henrietta who died in West Derby, Janet's post 3# above.

I wonder - Elizabeth Capper would have been married 25 years when Henrietta was born - was Annie their daughter and Henrietta their granddaughter maybe?

OC

[Vonny North West]

Oh, here you are:

Elizabeth Capper to Joseph BrotherSton 1843 St Bride and St Saviour, Liverpool.

EDIT - that would explain Henrietta who died in West Derby, Janet's post 3# above.

OC

I wonder why I didn't find that? As I said my eyes are getting bleary! Can you find another birth for Henrietta Brotherton/Morris?
Vonny.

[maudarby]

You are clever OC and he was a wood hoop maker.
Moggie

[Olde Crone Holden]

Moggie

You wouldn't say I was clever if you had seen the tripe I posted in my edited out post, lol!

Unfortunately, there's not much on Lancsbmd in the way of Liverpool records, for some reason.

I suspect that Joseph and Elizabeth had a child Henrietta who died as an infant (post #3 above). The birth may never have been registered - no penalties back then. Fast forward 25 years and their daughter Annie gets into trouble and Joseph and Elizabeth register the birth as if they were her (Henrietta's) parents - this has happened in my family.

I don't have access to census to see if Joseph and Elizabeth had a daughter called Annie, perhaps someone else could check that out please? If they didn't register Henrietta's birth then they may not have registered Annie's either.

OC

[Janet in Yorkshire]

In 1869 they married August 28th at Manchester Catherderal, Annie is 21 and Sampson is 25. Her father's name she has put as John Brotherton, joiner, Vonny.

John, NOT Joseph ............. two different Henriettas, I think, Joseph & Elizabeth's baby dying in her first year. Note how a one letter difference in Joseph's surname meant he didn't show up in the index under the name we were searching for - this is one of the common reasons people seem not to be in the GRO index.

[JudithM]

Have just followed Joseph and Elizabeth through the censuses in West Derby, no daughter Ann, so agree with Janet that the Henrietta who was born in Whiston 1868 died in infancy and is not your Henrietta and doesn't seem to be a close relative either.
1851 sons Edwin and Alfred HO107 piece 2190 folio 100 page 55
1861 sons Edwin 12, Alfred 10, Henry 5, George 3 wks RG09 piece 2715 folio 87 page 34
1871 son Gildart 18 (he was up the road in a relatives's house in 1861), daughter Frances 8 RG10 piece 3834 folio 64 page 25

[Vonny North West]

I don't know if this will be of any help to anyone looking. Henrietta Morris married James Marshall at the Albert Memorial Church in Miles Platting Collyhurst Manchester in 1886 (http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/cgi/...nty=lancashire)
Under Morris is a line, click on that line, also she comes under the name of Henrietta Brotherton and would come under "change of name" or an "alias". But she is one and the same, so if she married in church she must have had a birth certificate?
Vonny.

[Janet in Yorkshire]

You didn't have to show your birth certificate to get married. It was fairly common for illegitimate people to fluctuate between two family names - their birth name, and also the family name of a step-father. A man in my village, Billy T was still sometimes referred to as "Billy W" when I was a child and his wife always referred to Billy's mother as "Granny W." However, it was Billy's father James who had been illegitimate - T was his birth surname, but a Mr W had been his step-father. Billy's parents always went by the name of W until their deaths, although they were buried with the name T! I well remember Billy's wife, by then an old lady, saying that before she married she had asked Billy's mother whether his name was really W or T - the response was T, so she had said "Well, then, I shall be called Mrs T." So, sometimes you have to go a bit further back!

[Vonny North West]

More information if this is of any help to anyone looking. 1871 census Henrietta Morris, aged 3 Manchester. (This puts year of birth at 1868) Living Ernest Street Gorton. 1881 census Henrietta Morris aged 13 Manchester,(birth year 1868) Now living Thomas Street Openshawe. 1891 Henrietta Marshall nee Morris, aged 23, living with mother, siblings, husband and own children at Willow Street Harpurhey, b. Hulme Manchester. (birth year 1868) Death certificate, Henrietta Marshall (nee Morris) died aged 37, (birth year 1868) Her birth year is consistent. Her marriage registration makes me aware that she has been born Brotherton. With all this information why can't I find her birth registration? I thought I had cracked it when I found an 1868 birth, same name, same age, I must be missing something along the way but can't think where else to look.
Vonny

[Janet in Yorkshire]

Perhaps if we could find a bp it might help? I didn't see anything likely on familysearch.

[Vonny North West]

I can't see a young Henrietta Brotherton in 1871 census, but there is a Jun qtr 1868 death reg for a Henrietta Brotherton aged 0 yrs in West Derby Lancs. Could this be the baby born in November 1867? I can find Henrietta Morris living with parents Samson & Annie in Gorton Chorlton in 1871. Perhaps this child's birth wasn't registered, or there was a spelling error??

I think I have found this Henrietta, registered death in West Derby: Henrietta Brotherton b. 16th April 1868 Kirkdale, Walton on the Hill.
Vonny

[maudarby]

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=2962&iid=40365_293594-00889&fn=Henrietta&ln=Brotherton&st=d&ssrc=&pid=9401012

Henrietta's marriage cert. I don't think this has already been posted on the thread.
Moggie