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Wor canny Lass
09-05-13, 19:47
I am doing some research for a friend who lives in Canada. She desperately wishes to visit her gradfather's grave, but I don't know how I can trace it as i live in the North east, and my knowledge of London is sketchy to say the least.

The grave I would like to trace is for FREDERICK GRIFFIN born 30/1/1858 in Middlesex. He died on 5/11/1917 aat 32 Charing Cross Road London WC. Does anyone know where he is likely to be buried and who holds the records, please? Any info of where to try next would be welcome. I have written to the family History group, but had no reply.

Thank you for any help or advice.

Anne

Olde Crone Holden
09-05-13, 20:20
32 Charing Cross Rd is/was a theatre, Wyndhams. Unlikely he actually lived there unless he was theatre staff/management. The DC ought to give his usual address if he didn't live there.

OC

Wor canny Lass
09-05-13, 20:48
32 Charing Cross Rd is/was a theatre, Wyndhams. Unlikely he actually lived there unless he was theatre staff/management. The DC ought to give his usual address if he didn't live there.

OC

Thanks OC. The Information was given by my friend, so I shall take that up with her. I've checked the SCI for deaths and it is registered in St Martins.

Anne

Darksecretz
09-05-13, 21:55
Anne

have you got a current sub to Ancestry? have a look at this.. http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/8264913/person/6032314536

gives his place of death as Charing Cross Hospital, London, England

Darksecretz
09-05-13, 22:22
I was kind of hoping that I could find them in 1911 to see if it gave an address to track him in the Electoral Rolls.. but the only census I can find him on with family is 1901 and he was in Dulwich with his wife Harriet Jane and various children.

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1901&indiv=try&h=3697602

Olde Crone Holden
09-05-13, 22:46
But Charing Cross hospital (the old one) was never in Charing Cross Road, it was on a corner of the Strand and I think, Agar St.

32 Charing Cross Rd has been the home of Wyndham's theatre since 1903, so if he died there, he didn't die in Charing Cross hospital.

EDIT - maybe he was taken ill at the theatre, pronounced dead at Charing Cross hospital?

OC

dermotdjt
10-05-13, 07:16
The London Cemeteries records may be a good start

http://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/things-to-do/green-spaces/cemetery-and-crematorium/conservation-and-heritage/Pages/Cemetery-Registers.aspx
D

Darksecretz
10-05-13, 08:19
But Charing Cross hospital (the old one) was never in Charing Cross Road, it was on a corner of the Strand and I think, Agar St.

32 Charing Cross Rd has been the home of Wyndham's theatre since 1903, so if he died there, he didn't die in Charing Cross hospital.

EDIT - maybe he was taken ill at the theatre, pronounced dead at Charing Cross hospital?

OC

maybe OC, I was just going by the ancestry tree, it'd be helpful though to find him in 1911, though I can't spot him at the moment..

Janet in Yorkshire
10-05-13, 09:23
He would have been 59 when he died. The occupation column on the death cert would, perhaps, indicate whether or not he could have resided at the theatre - e.g caretaker. Also cause of death may give some indication as to whether it was sudden, accidental, or a condition which had caused him to be hospitalised. Could you ask your friend for a check on the address given on the cert?

Janet in Yorkshire
10-05-13, 09:44
I can't find any members of that 1901 family in 1911:(

Darksecretz
10-05-13, 10:03
I can't find any members of that 1901 family in 1911:(

tell me about it Jay :(

Elaine ..Spain
10-05-13, 10:17
Ditto ! :rotfl:

Janet in Yorkshire
10-05-13, 10:17
I think it could be because either there is a surname mis-transcription (although I would have expected some of the older boys to have had their own establishments) or, perhaps, we are missing some background info on the family; e.g the dates of the Canada angle. Frederick senior's job sounds interesting and the sort of thing that could have taken him out of the country over census time, but I don't think they would all have gone with him on a temporary basis??

Darksecretz
10-05-13, 10:23
I think it could be because either there is a surname mis-transcription (although I would have expected some of the older boys to have had their own establishments) or, perhaps, we are missing some background info on the family; e.g the dates of the Canada angle. Frederick senior's job sounds interesting and the sort of thing that could have taken him out of the country over census time, but I don't think they would all have gone with him on a temporary basis??

maybe we need to be casting the net a little further then? praps try looking at passenger lists etc.. I think I found somewhere that Harriet Jane died in Canada, so maybe that is the place to look?

Elaine ..Spain
10-05-13, 10:24
There is a Magdaline Griffin (b1886) shown on the Canadian Passenger Lists - travelling to Montreal Quebec, date of arrival 21 June 1909.
The writing is not clear but looks like she was heading to - brother farmer

Darksecretz
10-05-13, 10:27
there is this one but it is for 1920 and it states that Harriet is joining her sister in ONT canada, though she was detained for some reason..

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?rank=1&new=1&MSAV=1&msT=1&gss=angs-g&gsfn=har**&gsln=*iffen&msbdy=1860&msbpn__ftp=Lancashire%2c+England&msbpn=5271&msbpn_PInfo=7-%7c0%7c0%7c3257%7c3251%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c5271%7c0%7c0% 7c&msrpn__ftp=Middlesex%2c+England&msrpn=5275&msrpn_PInfo=7-%7c0%7c0%7c3257%7c3251%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c5275%7c0%7c0% 7c&cpxt=1&catBucket=rstp&uidh=lg3&msbdp=2&cp=3&pcat=ROOT_CATEGORY&h=6651441&db=CanadianPL&indiv=1

Elaine ..Spain
10-05-13, 10:27
1916 Canada Census of Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and Alberta


Household of
John H Griffin 25 (head of household - occ. farmer)
Magdeline Griffin 29
Douglas Griffin 24
Grace Griffin 15

Year of immigration for John, Magdeline and Douglas - 1907
Year of immigration for Grace - 1910

Darksecretz
10-05-13, 10:31
Ahhhhhhhhhhh

1910 going to SON a Farmer she has two children with her, it states that Husband is to join later!

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?rank=1&new=1&MSAV=1&msT=1&gss=angs-g&gsfn=harriet&gsln=griffin&msbdy=1860&msbpn__ftp=Lancashire%2c+England&msbpn=5271&msbpn_PInfo=7-%7c0%7c0%7c3257%7c3251%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c5271%7c0%7c0% 7c&msrpn__ftp=Middlesex%2c+England&msrpn=5275&msrpn_PInfo=7-%7c0%7c0%7c3257%7c3251%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c5275%7c0%7c0% 7c&cpxt=1&catBucket=rstp&uidh=lg3&msbdp=2&cp=3&pcat=ROOT_CATEGORY&h=3291992&db=CanadianPL&indiv=1

Elaine ..Spain
10-05-13, 10:33
Canadian passengers lists for 1910 show Harriett, Ruth and Grace travelling together.
Frederick not shown - although it indicates "to son farmer - husband later

Elaine ..Spain
10-05-13, 10:33
Snap!

The question is "did he ever go" ?

Darksecretz
10-05-13, 10:38
Snap!

The question is "did he ever go" ?

not sure but in Dec 1917 Harriet is going back to Canada, with Ruth and also Joan Barbara aged 4.. [Harriet is stated as widow].. maybe she came back to arrange his funeral etc..??

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?rank=1&new=1&MSAV=1&msT=1&gss=angs-g&gsfn=harriet&gsln=griffin&msbdy=1860&msbpn__ftp=Lancashire%2c+England&msbpn=5271&msbpn_PInfo=7-%7c0%7c0%7c3257%7c3251%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c5271%7c0%7c0% 7c&msrpn__ftp=Middlesex%2c+England&msrpn=5275&msrpn_PInfo=7-%7c0%7c0%7c3257%7c3251%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c5275%7c0%7c0% 7c&cpxt=1&catBucket=rstp&uidh=lg3&msbdp=2&cp=3&pcat=ROOT_CATEGORY&h=2190163&db=CanadianPL&indiv=1

Wor canny Lass
10-05-13, 10:40
thanks a lot everyone. I can't find the family on the 1911 census either. According to the 1901 census he was an 'inventor', butI don't know what he invented!!


accordng to the SCI of deaths, his death was registered in St martin. - I don't know whether this covers Charing cross - ether hospital or road!

i have e-mailed my friend to check the aaddress on death, and suggested we get the death cert above. I've also asked if he ever went to Canada, which might explain the absence of the 1911 census, but there is no record as far as I can see of travelling there. His wife was Harriet nee Gow, and she died in Canada I think it was thr 1940s. Frederick died on 5th November so Harriet and the family may have gone out then.

thank you for the sites suggested, I will try them. I do have Ancestry, but have drawn blanks so far

Anne

Darksecretz
10-05-13, 11:11
just a thought, if he was an inventor and he died in London, then wouldn't there be something in the newspapers? [I can't help out there cos I have no idea how to look in them!!]

Darksecretz
10-05-13, 11:13
have you seen this? might be worthwhile contacting them

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/LONDON/2010-07/1280559237

Janet in Yorkshire
10-05-13, 11:30
The 1901 census return transcription has Frederick's occupation as "Inventor's model maker," which is not the same thing as "inventor" - sounds as if he had engineering skills and perhaps created the prototypes, transforming the inventors ideas into working artifacts. Or, he could have worked on producing scaled down demonstration models, which could be carried around by a rep (or himself acting as a "commission agent" - a term used I think for commercial traveller selling on commission, rather than a commission agent, "turf accountant"/bookie.)

Darksecretz
10-05-13, 11:37
The 1901 census return transcription has Frederick's occupation as "Inventor's model maker," which is not the same thing as "inventor" - sounds as if he had engineering skills and perhaps created the prototypes, transforming the inventors ideas into working artifacts. Or, he could have worked on producing scaled down demonstration models, which could be carried around by a rep (or himself acting as a "commission agent" - a term used I think for commercial traveller selling on commission, rather than a commission agent, "turf accountant"/bookie.)

and in 1891 his occupation is Inventor - Scient :conf:

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1891&indiv=try&h=18685758

Elaine ..Spain
10-05-13, 11:45
just a thought, if he was an inventor and he died in London, then wouldn't there be something in the newspapers? [I can't help out there cos I have no idea how to look in them!!]

I did have a quick look at the newspapers but nothing jumped out at me! I'll take another look.

Update - can't see anything in the newspapers.

keldon
10-05-13, 12:14
There's a Frederick Griffin who's an electrical engineer / inventor mentioned in some of these Google responses.
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22Frederick+griifin%22+patent&btnG=Search+Books&tbm=bks&tbo=1#safe=off&tbm=bks&q=%22Frederick+griffin%22+patent+electrical&spell=1&sa=X&ei=t9WMUdK9D6Ol0QXwmIGoDA&ved=0CDAQBSgA&bav=on.2,or.&bvm=bv.46340616,d.d2k&fp=1fb7b2291d839f5&biw=1024&bih=672

Janet in Yorkshire
10-05-13, 12:42
I didn't see anything in the newspapers, although I only tried 1917, the year of his death.

loltel
10-05-13, 16:34
This is fredericks bankruptcy - confirmed by the same address as 1891 census

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/26879/pages/4373/page.pdf

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/27167/pages/1249/page.pdf

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/30747/pages/7097/page.pdf

Wor canny Lass
10-05-13, 17:14
Hello everyone,

Francis is going to scan her grandfather;s death cert and send it to me his weekend, She is travelling to Sweden this weekend, so may not have have the time.

About her grandfather's inventions she says -

My inventor grandfather invented the safety pin, the gun sight (stolen by an
American as he did not patent it) and a bicycle that all his five children
rode on at once. I think they had photo taken for the Times paper as they
used to ride around their streets. In 1891 they lived on Regent Street -
address is a pharmacy now. Wish I'd asked dad more about the family but
when you are young you don't realize how important it is.

Olde Crone Holden
10-05-13, 18:38
Both Wyndhams Theatre and the old Charing Cross Hospital were in the postal district WC2 and Charing Cross would have been the nearest hospital to Wyndhams, if you were taken ill there. St Martins is the correct registration district for both places.

I suppose it's possible there were residential flats at the top of the theatre but I would have expected them to have their own house numbers.

OC

bcbrit
10-05-13, 22:04
Hi There,

Check out the website - www.londonburials.co.uk.

It is a facinating and fantastic site .

bcbrit

Olde Crone Holden
10-05-13, 22:42
The reason I've been doggedly banging on about the addresses on the death cert is because, if they are correct, then they are no indicator of where he actually LIVED and therefore, no indicator of where he might be buried.

He could also have been cremated.

EDIT - The actual wording on the death cert will be helpful, let's hope!

OC

Wor canny Lass
11-05-13, 08:38
yes, OC, that's what I think - where did he live? Hopefully, the death cert will have an address, but another friend told me that his death was registered by a sister-in-law, who lived elsewhere!! This friend also said that he died in Charing Cross hospital. He was definitely buried.

Still waiting for the cert.

Thank you everyone for all your helpful advice.

Anne

Janet in Yorkshire
11-05-13, 09:29
Won't the address of the informant (as well as her name) be on the death cert? Interesting that a non-blood relative registered the death - wonder if immediate relatives were out of the country? Sister-in-law, technically, could be wife of deceased's brother or sister of deceased's wife. Perhaps chasing up her connection will give a clue.

Olde Crone Holden
11-05-13, 10:56
Ah, the informant may have got the address wrong then. The hospital would have 32 Charing Cross Rd as his "last address" because that was where he was admitted from.

If he was DOA at the hospital though, how did they know to contact his sister in law?

OC