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A Mary Smith Problem - Super Sleuths Needed !

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  • A Mary Smith Problem - Super Sleuths Needed !

    I'm doing a tree for a friend and it's turning out to be anything but straight-forward. My latest dead-end is this:

    I now have a marriage certificate for

    Harry Clements, 23, batchelor, miner, lived Newthorpe, Notts, s/o William Thomas Clements, miner
    and
    Mary Alice Smith, 24, spinster, - , lived Newthorpe, Notts, d/o Harry Smith, lace maker

    from Parish Church, Greasley, Notts on 23 Aug 1913.

    Witnesses were William Thomas Clements (father of groom), Nellie (Ellen) Clements (sister of groom), Alice Clements (sister of groom) and William Henry Stanley (soon to be huband of Ellen Clements) - so, no-one from Mary Alice's family!

    I have Mary Alice Clements death in Chesterfield Reg District in 1958, which confirms an approx 1890 dob, which ties in with her age on her marriage certificate.

    Problem is, I can't really pinpoint her at all with a father called Harry in any of the census records from 1891, 1901 or 1911. There is a Mary Alice with a father Harry in Yorks, but she's 2-3 years too old, and others similarly "out" in terms of dates etc.

    If she was born locally there are a couple of possibles:
    Q3, 1889 Basford
    and
    Q1, 1890 Basford

    I've had a rummage around the IGI without any success and wondered if anyone here had any bright ideas.

    HELP ! Please. Pretty please!

    STG
    Always looking for Goodwins in Berkshire.

  • #2
    Possibly, but on those she's b. 1887, which makes her a bit older than her other records suggest. Unless she was actually 3yrs older than her husband, but trimmed a couple off to make it sound a bit better.
    Always looking for Goodwins in Berkshire.

    Comment


    • #3
      Harry/Henry try Henry for the father and widen the timespan

      Edna

      Comment


      • #4
        STG

        have you got the groom in the census? she isn't living anywhere near them is she? did they have children? did they name any from her side of the family at all? [what I mean is, if they didn't name children from Harrys side could they be named from hers?]
        Julie
        They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

        .......I find dead people

        Comment


        • #5
          this looks good!..

          1891: http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin...&rhSource=7814

          1901: http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin...ki1901&indiv=1

          1911: http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin...&rhSource=6598

          Heanor, [as you may know] is not a million miles from Eastwood which is in the Greasley parish.
          Julie
          They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

          .......I find dead people

          Comment


          • #6
            Thanks Julie.

            I had seen the Henry in Heanor one and tried to find a baptism for Mary Alice in St Lawrence's, Heanor (records available free on-line), but she's not there.

            Then just before I went out this morning I found one b. Kimberley 1890 on the 1901 and 1911 census, living with an aunt/uncle William and Caroline Roberts. In 1901 they're in Papplewick (good, closeish to Greasley/Newthorpe), but in 1911 they're in Flintwick Needham (not quite so good - half-way between Bingham and Newark - except that distance might explain why they weren't at the wedding).
            Always looking for Goodwins in Berkshire.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by SmallTownGirl View Post
              Thanks Julie.

              I had seen the Henry in Heanor one and tried to find a baptism for Mary Alice in St Lawrence's, Heanor (records available free on-line), but she's not there.
              it might be that she wasn't baptised, [maybe just her birth was registered?] maybe a local studies library near you might have more in the way of microfiche PR's? [are the free-online baptisms complete?]
              Julie
              They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

              .......I find dead people

              Comment


              • #8
                Thanks Julie.

                As it happens I'm meeting another friend for lunch in Nottingham tomorrow, so am going to pop into the Archives first and double check this marriage. The certificate I have has been written all in the same hand, and I'm wondering if the father Harry is a mistake (vicar just got the name in his head from the groom and wrote it in error). Anyway, that will put my mind at rest.

                I've asked the family to try to think what they might remember about Mary Alice, what she might have told them about growing up etc, any siblings. So far, the only info that's come back has been on the groom's side of the family and I think I've got that covered.

                One of her other ancestors is quite interesting. Had a child before marriage; then married (not father of first child, I don't think) and had nine children. In 1871 she and husband are living apart -she in Eastwood, he in Wolverhampton. 1881 they're both in Eastwood - he "married" and living with his eldest daughter and her family, she "widowed" and living as "paramour" with someone else. 1891 both husband and paramour have died and she's now married to the local pork butcher with some of her older children (from husband) and two children from the paramour. Crikey!
                Always looking for Goodwins in Berkshire.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Darksecretz View Post
                  STG

                  have you got the groom in the census? she isn't living anywhere near them is she? did they have children? did they name any from her side of the family at all? [what I mean is, if they didn't name children from Harrys side could they be named from hers?]
                  In 1911 groom is in Newthorpe with his family. Harry and Mary Alice had four children (Harry Roy, Albert Frederick, Derrick Austin - all known to be deceased - and a daughter I won't name because I don't know whether she's still alive), so no clues from the children's names really except Austin, which is the maiden name of someone further back in Harry Clements' tree.
                  Always looking for Goodwins in Berkshire.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by SmallTownGirl View Post
                    In 1911 groom is in Newthorpe with his family. Harry and Mary Alice had four children (Harry Roy, Albert Frederick, Derrick Austin - all known to be deceased - and a daughter I won't name because I don't know whether she's still alive), so no clues from the children's names really except Austin, which is the maiden name of someone further back in Harry Clements' tree.
                    Did the right thing not posting the name of the daughter, because she is still alive. Friend has just spoken to her and she says that Mary Alice had a sister called Edith and a brother called Albert, so the Heanor family looks a bit more likely now. Will feel better when I've checked Mary Alice's father's name on the original marriage cert though.
                    Always looking for Goodwins in Berkshire.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by SmallTownGirl View Post
                      Did the right thing not posting the name of the daughter, because she is still alive. Friend has just spoken to her and she says that Mary Alice had a sister called Edith and a brother called Albert, so the Heanor family looks a bit more likely now. Will feel better when I've checked Mary Alice's father's name on the original marriage cert though.
                      ooh that is good news STG :smilee: might be that the others have baptism records..[she says hopefully! @ St. Lawrences?] I think from looking backwards that Janes MN was HALLAM.. that name seems to stick in my head for some reason!..
                      Julie
                      They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                      .......I find dead people

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        and checking the marriage Henry SMITH to Jane HALLAM 20th Feb 1870 @ St Lawrence @ GOTHAM. [Nottm] :smilee: so maybe that would be a good thing to look up @ Nottm Archives?
                        Julie
                        They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                        .......I find dead people

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Oh thanks for that Julie. I've been so focussed on Mary Alice that I hadn't thought ahead (backwards) to her parents' wedding.

                          I also see from FreeBMD that on the same register page as Harry Clements and Mary Alice is a Thomas E Smith marrying Lois Birkumshaw, so am wondering if he was married at Greasley on the same day, and if so what I might find tomorrow.

                          Will keep you posted.

                          STG
                          Last edited by SmallTownGirl; 30-04-13, 19:06.
                          Always looking for Goodwins in Berkshire.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hi Julie

                            Am pleased to report that my gut instinct about the Mary Alice's father's GN on the marriage cert was right. On the original he's HENRY (not Harry), which means that the three census records you found, plus the added info that she had siblings called Edith and Albert, is most likely the correct family.

                            The Thomas E Smith, married same day, same place is s/o John Smith, so not connected.

                            Then I followed your lead back to Henry's marriage in Gotham in 1870 to Jane Hallam. That showed me Henry's father was Thomas and Jane's was George, and one of the witnesses was a Lucy Smith. In the time available, I didn't find anything else more about the Hallams, because I concentrated on the Smiths. Couldn't find Henry's baptism, but did find one that looked v.likely for Lucy (1843) and then found a marriage for a Thomas Smith in 1843 to an Ann.

                            But I'm jinxed with this tree. Ann was listed as Ann Smith, widow, daughter of Joseph Smith. Smiths marrying Smiths. Arghhh!

                            There was a Lucy Smith as a witness to that marriage too, which I'm supposing (without research) is Thomas's sister. So, Thomas had a sister Lucy; Henry had a sister Lucy and (assuming we've got the right family and all, caveats, caveats etc), Mary Alice had a sister called Lucy.

                            Still, despite the Smiths setbacks, I feel that I've made some real progress.

                            Thanks for your help and encouragement.
                            STG

                            Edit: Just been looking at census records and see that Henry's mother was Mary, so hopefully if I can find a marriage for Thomas and Mary, her maiden name won't turn out to be Smith.
                            Last edited by SmallTownGirl; 01-05-13, 20:18. Reason: Extra info
                            Always looking for Goodwins in Berkshire.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by SmallTownGirl View Post
                              Oh thanks for that Julie. I've been so focussed on Mary Alice that I hadn't thought ahead (backwards) to her parents' wedding.

                              I also see from FreeBMD that on the same register page as Harry Clements and Mary Alice is a Thomas E Smith marrying Lois Birkumshaw, so am wondering if he was married at Greasley on the same day, and if so what I might find tomorrow.

                              Will keep you posted.

                              STG
                              maybe Thomas & MA were cousins? though with a name like smith then anything is possible!

                              good news about the parents though.. have you now got them in all the census?
                              Julie
                              They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                              .......I find dead people

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Henry etc....

                                1881: http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin...&rhSource=6598

                                1871: http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin...&rhSource=7572

                                1861: http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin...&rhSource=7619

                                1851: http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin...&rhSource=8767

                                1841: http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin...&rhSource=8860

                                will have a mooch around to see if I can find anything about his birth...and a marriage for Thomas & Mary
                                Julie
                                They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                                .......I find dead people

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  according to the census, Thomas was b. abt. 1800 I have had a look and can only spot one bapt in my records for a thomas.. this was @ gotham 12th Jan 1800 to William & Elizabeth SMITH, i'll have a look to see if I can spot any siblings that might help.

                                  there looks to be a sister, Sarah bapt 05 sept 1802 to the same parents and at Gotham. nothing much else after that..so whether they move or die I have no idea..
                                  Last edited by Darksecretz; 02-05-13, 14:37.
                                  Julie
                                  They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                                  .......I find dead people

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Thanks for those, particularly Thomas baptism and his parents' names.

                                    There are some Gotham PRs on FS, but I haven't been able to find a marriage for Thomas Smith to Mary. Fingers crossed that you have better luck or else it's back to Notts Archive for me.
                                    Always looking for Goodwins in Berkshire.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by SmallTownGirl View Post
                                      Thanks for those, particularly Thomas baptism and his parents' names.

                                      There are some Gotham PRs on FS, but I haven't been able to find a marriage for Thomas Smith to Mary. Fingers crossed that you have better luck or else it's back to Notts Archive for me.
                                      I have had a look, but can't pinpoint anything likely for Gotham, there are a few around, but nothing that 'jumps' out, tbh I'd expect the marriage to be @ Gotham, but, I guess anything is possible.
                                      Julie
                                      They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                                      .......I find dead people

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Census says they're both from Gotham, but who knows the truth. I'll have to try surrounding parishes to see if there's an obvious.

                                        Thanks again
                                        STG
                                        Always looking for Goodwins in Berkshire.

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