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View Full Version : Stanley conundrum - what do you think?



PeteW1959
12-04-13, 19:50
I have the marriage certificate of Frederick Stanley and Winney Cannon 22 Aug 1837 in the Parish Church, Hammersmith. They are both of full age, batchelor and spinster, he is a Labourer and she is a servant. No clues in fathers or witnesses.

I have them in 1841 HO107/690/12/41/15 (link) (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?rank=1&new=1&MSAV=1&msT=1&gss=angs-c&gsfn=frederick&gsln=stanley&msbdy=1816&uidh=9u2&pcat=1841UKI&h=7574252&recoff=6+7&db=uki1841&indiv=1) The address is 9 South Row, Kensington and they have 1 child; all 3 are born in county.

John and Margaret Cannon at the same address are Winifred and Frederick's brother and sister, I think (if only they had relationships on the 1841!), but they are both born in Scotland, Ireland etc.

I have the birth certificate for their 3rd child Thomas born 21 Dec 1847 at 9 South Row, Earls Court father Frederick Stanley, gardener, mother Winifred Stanley formerly Cannon.

Now this is where it starts to go slightly wrong.

In 1851 (HO107/1469/98/15) (link) (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?rank=1&new=1&MSAV=1&msT=1&gss=angs-c&gsfn=frederick&gsln=stanley&uidh=9u2&mssng0=Ann&pcat=1851UKI&h=2116197&recoff=6+7+86&db=uki1851&indiv=1) they are still at 9 South Row, Kensington with children Mary Ann from 1841, Sarah, Thomas Samuel, Hannah and Frederick's sister Margaret Cannon, a widow. However this time his wife is named as Ann (same dob as Winifred in 1841), and they are both born Ireland, as is Margaret Cannon. Because of the address and other similarities I am sure this is the same family, but am confused about the differences in wife's name and place of birth. I can't find a death for Winifred, or another marriage for Frederick.

In 1861 I am not sure I have the correct family, but this is the closest I can find - RG9/22/93/45 (link) (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&db=uki1861&rank=1&new=1&MSAV=1&msT=1&gss=angs-d&dbOnly=_F00027B9|_F00027B9_x%2c_F0003039|_F0003039 _x%2c_F000303A|_F000303A_x%2c_F00032DB|_F00032DB_x %2c_83004006|_83004006_x%2c_F000303D|_F000303D_x%2 c_F000303E|_F000303E_x%2c_F00032F6|_F00032F6_x%2c_ F0003888|_F0003888_x&_F0003039=22&_F0003039_x=1&_F000303A=93&_F000303A_x=1&_F00032DB=45&_F00032DB_x=1&uidh=9u2&pcat=35&fh=22&h=95569&recoff=)

Frederick is the right age and a gardener, but this time he is born Bedfordshire (can't read the village), his son Thomas is there (correct age and place of birth) but there is no sign of the other children or his wife, even though his condition is 'Mar'. He has a visitor with him born Worthing? Bedfordshire.

I have searched extensively and can't find Winifred/Ann or the other children. The address they were at 9 South Row has a different family.

So what do you think? Do I have the right family in 1861, if not can you find them?

Chrissie Smiff
12-04-13, 20:22
I think it should say Westoning in Bedfordshire Pete. Where does it say he was born in 1851? Did you mean that it says he was born Ireland?
p.s. Doesn't the 'vistor' say sister?

webwiz
12-04-13, 20:35
Cor! You must have one of the earliest certificates ever issued.

PeteW1959
12-04-13, 20:38
Not sure where in my post you read that he was born 1851 :confused: but yes, on the 1851 it says born Ireland, and I have him born 1816 -1821

Looking again it perhaps does say sister, but that just adds to the confusion!

Val wish Id never started
12-04-13, 21:32
cannot find Winifred but there is a W S born 1823 a married Nurse born Highbury Middlesex in the St Pancras workhouse in 1861 ?

Val wish Id never started
12-04-13, 21:41
Hannahs bap if you dont have it
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1558/31280_197666-00019/3591085?backlabel=ReturnRecord&backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2f%2fcg i-bin%2fsse.dll%3findiv%3d1%26db%3dLMAbirths%26rank% 3d1%26new%3d1%26MSAV%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gss%3dangs-d%26gsfn%3dHANNAH%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dSTANLEY%26 gsln_x%3d1%26msfng0%3dFREDERICK%26msfns0%3dSTANLEY %26dbOnly%3d_F00058A6%257c_F00058A6_x%252c_F0005A4 9%257c_F0005A49_x%252c_F0005A5E%257c_F0005A5E_x%26 uidh%3duld%26msbdp%3d2%26pcat%3d34%26fh%3d0%26h%3d 3591085%26recoff%3d8%2b9%2b32%2b43%2b44&ssrc=&noredir=beta

Val wish Id never started
12-04-13, 21:43
Frederick Thomas
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1558/32184_218918-00486/8734529?backlabel=ReturnRecord&backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2f%2fcg i-bin%2fsse.dll%3findiv%3d1%26db%3dLMAbirths%26rank% 3d1%26new%3d1%26MSAV%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gss%3dangs-d%26gsfn%3dthomas%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dSTANLEY%26 gsln_x%3d1%26msfng0%3dFREDERICK%26msfns0%3dSTANLEY %26dbOnly%3d_F00058A6%257c_F00058A6_x%252c_F0005A4 9%257c_F0005A49_x%252c_F0005A5E%257c_F0005A5E_x%26 uidh%3duld%26msbdp%3d2%26pcat%3d34%26fh%3d0%26h%3d 8734529%26recoff%3d11%2b12%2b39%2b50%2b51&ssrc=&noredir=beta

Val wish Id never started
12-04-13, 21:47
Thomas Samuel

not sure if you have these or not
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1558/31280_197666-00005/3582213?backlabel=ReturnRecord&backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2f%2fcg i-bin%2fsse.dll%3findiv%3d1%26db%3dLMAbirths%26rank% 3d1%26new%3d1%26MSAV%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gss%3dangs-d%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dSTANLEY%26gsln_x%3d1%26msf ng0%3dFREDERICK%26msfns0%3dSTANLEY%26msmng0%3dwini fred%26dbOnly%3d_F00058A6%257c_F00058A6_x%252c_F00 05A49%257c_F0005A49_x%252c_F0005A5E%257c_F0005A5E_ x%26uidh%3duld%26msbdp%3d2%26pcat%3d34%26fh%3d1%26 h%3d3582213%26recoff%3d10%2b32%2b33%2b44%2b45&ssrc=&noredir=beta

Val wish Id never started
12-04-13, 21:56
hardly seems likely but a death for a Winifred Stanley Mar 1849 Ashton under Lyne lancashire 20 56

Val wish Id never started
12-04-13, 22:02
Sarahs marriage
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1623/31280_194967-00589/6129611?backlabel=ReturnRecord&backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2f%2fcg i-bin%2fsse.dll%3findiv%3d1%26db%3dLMAmarriages%26ra nk%3d1%26new%3d1%26MSAV%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gss%3dangs-d%26gsfn%3dsarah%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dstanley%26g sln_x%3d1%26msgdy%3d1862%26dbOnly%3d_F00058A6%257c _F00058A6_x%252c_F0005A5D%257c_F0005A5D_x%252c_F00 05A49%257c_F0005A49_x%26uidh%3duld%26pcat%3d34%26f h%3d0%26h%3d6129611%26recoff%3d9%2b10%2b30&ssrc=&noredir=beta

Chrissie Smiff
13-04-13, 08:50
Not sure where in my post you read that he was born 1851 :confused: but yes, on the 1851 it says born Ireland, and I have him born 1816 -1821

Looking again it perhaps does say sister, but that just adds to the confusion!

Sorry Pete, I didn't put that very clearly. I should have said 'on the 1851 census where does it say he was born':o

PeteW1959
13-04-13, 10:44
Thanks for the links Val!

The only one I hadn't seen is Frederick Thomas; I didn't know he existed! Don't know how I missed that one.

I had seen the potential marriage of Sarah, but I wasn't 100% certain it was her as there are other Sarah and Frederick Stanleys around in London at the time.

I haven't found this couple in 1871, or Daniel in 1861 but McClough is ripe for mistranscription. I have searched for them on first names and her date of birth, but despite ploughing through several hundred entries, nothing jumps out at me. There is only one Sarah Stanley in 1861 that fits, but as she is a lodger in Spitalfields and her place of birth is just London it is by no means certain that it is my Sarah.

As for W S in the workhouse, how likely is it that a wife would be in the workhouse while her husband had one of the children at home?

I don't think the Lancashire death is her, as I am sure I found this one on the 1841 census, but it was a long time ago I searched and I didn't make a note.

vera2013
13-04-13, 14:09
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=1559&iid=32184_218918-00576&fn=Frederick+Thomas&ln=Stanley&st=r&ssrc=&pid=13720727

This sadly is the death of Frederick Thomas. He died age 1 in 1845.

I had a look at the family last night and went off on a lead for an Ann Reynolds in 1861 living with a John and Reynolds children but with another child named Frederick Stanley aged 13 (b 1848). Ann was born in Westoning, Beds and married John Reynolds in 1852 in Bedford. However, I could not link her to your Frederick who was living in Kensington with Thomas and sister Emma in 1861. I think she must have been the daughter of the Stanley family living in Westoning.

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&db=uki1861&rank=1&new=1&MSAV=1&msT=1&gss=angs-d&gsfn=frederick&gsln=stanley&msrpn__ftp=Kensington%2c+Middlesex%2c+England&msrpn=85856&msrpn_PInfo=8-%7c0%7c0%7c3257%7c3251%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c5275%7c85856% 7c0%7c&cpxt=1&uidh=326&_83004003-n_xcl=f&cp=11&pcat=CEN_1860&fh=37&h=23627430&recoff=

As you know Sarah married Daniel McClurgh in 1862. Just prior to marriage your Sarah was living in Notting Hill (got this from divorce proceedings - can put up the link if you wish) but couldn't find her nor her sister Mary Ann (who married also in 1862 to Denis McCarthy) in 1861. Was hoping to find Ann or Winifred with one of the girls perhaps but no luck. Tis a puzzler. I wonder if she was sick somewhere and recorded with initials only. Will take another look.

Do you have the father's names and witnesses from the wedding cert?

Vera

vera2013
13-04-13, 14:47
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1861&h=6785366&indiv=try&o_vc=Record:OtherRecord&rhSource=7572

This could be Daniel in 1861. He did go on to be a Police Constable Most the children born in India including the 1871 period.
Said Blacksmith on wedding cert tho. Maybe something to do with the horses.

Vera

PeteW1959
15-04-13, 14:46
Hi Vera,

Thanks for the links. As Frederick Thomas died age 1 and wouldn't have been on any census that is why I missed him. When I originally researched this part of my tree parish registers wern't available on line and I lived too far away from London for anything more than an occasional visit and National Archives and LMA time was extremely limited.

As it looks like there was a Stanley cluster in Westoning, I am even more certain that the 1861 census I have is the wrong one. I know there are a number of records either missing or incomplete for the 1861 census, and a fair few are for West London; I am now wondering if they were in one of these areas. Once the electoral registers have been fully transcribed and seachable by name I might find them that way, and that would tell me if they are in one of the missing areas.

The names on the MC are as follows:

Groom's father:- Thomas Stanley, labourer
Bride's father:- Patrick Cannon, labourer
Witnesses :- not very clear, but possibly Joseph Ceres and Ann Ceres. See attached image

16774

But none of this addresses the Winifred/Ann issue! Winifred is definately the mother of Hannah born Q3 1849 (probably late Aug/early Sept as she was baptised 9th Sept) from her baptism record, so is it possible that she had died and Frederick remarried only 18 months later? Not an impossible timescale, but not one I have come across before. There is a baptism in 1867 for a John Edward Stanley to Frederick and Anne in Bermondsey, but Frederick is a bricklayer, not a gardener. The 1861 census would be SUCH a help!

I am not certain of Daniel's surname spelling from the marriage Val posted. I thought it read McClurgh, but FreeBMD has it as both McClurgh and McClough. Looking at the index image it is definately McClough.

If you could send the link for the divorce record I would really appriciate it. Thank you.

EDIT: I've just looked at the BMD index page for Sarah and Daniel marriage again, and there are two Daniels on the page for Kensington 1a 88, McClough AND McClurgh, which makes 5 people on FreeBMD where there should only be 4!

vera2013
15-04-13, 14:59
Hello

That 1861 with Fredk, Thos and Emma may not be right as you say. They all seemed to split up after that Thos went on to marry and Emma was living alone and there was a Joseph Stanley right age, married but living alone in the same area. Could be they have nothing to do with your London family which seems to have Irish connections.

Will let you have link of divorce by PM

Vera

PeteW1959
15-04-13, 15:26
Thanks Vera, have got the link.

I have never looked for divorce records for any of my family as they were all poor working class at best and I didn't think any of them would have been able to afford divorce proccedings; this one cost Daniel £17 8s 10d which is worth around £7500 today based on average earnings. He must have had either a good job (certainly not Army pay if the 1861 entry you found is correct) or family money.

vera2013
15-04-13, 16:57
Not sure having read the divorce document whether it was actually granted but I imagine one or other of the parties would have had to pay something for the work done. Think Daniel went on to be a Police Constable but that would have been low paid too I imagine.
Sarah did go on to live with the fellow involved but kept with the McClurgh name.

Just in case Ann/Winfred was incarcerated in a mental establishment did look at Hanwell and yes they were initials only and males and females recorded together. Couldn't see her when I used the usual search methods.


Vera