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Elaine
09-04-13, 20:04
Have not had this before so asking those in the know, how do you go about tracing French births?

Have this family 1851, Isabella is the person I am tracing through a marriage (what marriage by the way to Thomas Hurst) as she is quite some lady, have her details and other marriages

1851 Census.
Bonners Lane, St. Mary, Leicester.
Thomas Clay Age 49 Head Married Occupation Warp Hand. Born Leicester
Louisa Clay Age 45 Wife Married Born Leicester
George Clay Age 19 Son Unmarried Occupation Warp Hand Born Leicester
Isabella C. CLAY Age 17 Daughter Unmarried Occupation Fancy Knitter Born Leicester
Jacques Edward Clay Age 13 Son Occupation Winder Born France.....Lille later census
Jean Baptiste Clay Age 11 Son Occupation Winder Born France
Joseph E. J. Clay Age 9 Son Occupation Winder Born France
Sarah A. O'Connor Clay Age 3 Daughter Born Leicester

Isabella is a Chapman Clay and the boys J is Jones which is their mother's maiden name

and also, could a child have a private Catholic christening 1861 if the parents weren't married? the child wasn't expected to live and did die at 2wks old

SmallTownGirl
09-04-13, 20:38
I know nurthing about French records, but wonder if Thomas was asked to go to France by his employer if/when employer set up a factory there, so that Thomas could show the locals how it was done?

Just a thort.

margaretmarch
09-04-13, 21:01
Have not had this before so asking those in the know, how do you go about tracing French births?

Have this family 1851, Isabella is the person I am tracing through a marriage (what marriage by the way to Thomas Hurst) as she is quite some lady, have her details and other marriages

1851 Census.
Bonners Lane, St. Mary, Leicester.
Thomas Clay Age 49 Head Married Occupation Warp Hand. Born Leicester
Louisa Clay Age 45 Wife Married Born Leicester
George Clay Age 19 Son Unmarried Occupation Warp Hand Born Leicester
Isabella C. CLAY Age 17 Daughter Unmarried Occupation Fancy Knitter Born Leicester
Jacques Edward Clay Age 13 Son Occupation Winder Born France.....Lille later census
Jean Baptiste Clay Age 11 Son Occupation Winder Born France
Joseph E. J. Clay Age 9 Son Occupation Winder Born France
Sarah A. O'Connor Clay Age 3 Daughter Born Leicester

Isabella is a Chapman Clay and the boys J is Jones which is their mother's maiden name

and also, could a child have a private Catholic christening 1861 if the parents weren't married? the child wasn't expected to live and did die at 2wks old

French records are arranged by area there is nothing for the whole of France so you need to have an idea where in France to look. Ancestry do have some records of baptisms and marriages in France.

Margaret

Uncle John
09-04-13, 21:05
Definitely worth considering. I had a chappie who was sent by the Coats thread people in Paisley to St Petersburg in the 1890s to run a thread factory. And another who went from Sunderland to Norway in the 1850s to learn about pottery. Two children were born there and he went on to run one of the Sunderland Lustre pottery factories.

margaretmarch
09-04-13, 21:14
Have a look here at the records ancestry has http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?rank=0&f2=France+births&gskw=&f21=&f30=&f11=&rg_f10__date=&rs_f10__date=0&f26=&ctx=%2FMercury%2FPages%2FCardCatListBoolean.aspx&ccType=search&db=dbatitles&ti=5538&ti.si=0&gl=&gss=mp-dbatitles&gst=&so=3&_F0003A49-int=1

also here http://www.genealogie.com/v4/genealogie/Homepage.mvc/Welcome

Margaret

Christine in Herts
09-04-13, 21:17
This is a very useful link: http://archives-departementales.com/

There are quite a lot of record images available online for free. It helps a lot to be able to read French, since there are not many concessions made to foreign visitors to the sites.

Christine

Elaine
09-04-13, 21:28
I shall have to get my daughter to help me with the translating
Thanks everyone

margaretmarch
09-04-13, 22:16
Found these births which I know are not you timeframe but does beg the question if they maybe had some connections is France??

Jean-Baptiste-Antoine CLAY
Place of Origin: Reims, Saint-Timothee
Father: Antoine CLAY
Mother: Catherine-Nicole FOUQUET
Birth Date: 8 déc. 1758 (8 Dec 1758)
Birth Location: Reims, Saint-Timothee

ean-Baptiste-Paschal CLAY
Place of Origin: Reims, Saint-Timothee
Father: Antoine CLAY
Mother: Catherine-Nicole FOUQUET
Birth Date: 24 juin 1760 (24 Jun 1760)
Birth Location: Reims, Saint-Timothee

Elaine
09-04-13, 22:26
Must admit that crossed my mind when I saw it

kylejustin
10-04-13, 04:47
if they are born in lille, you need to figure out which department it is in. then go to the departemental archives website, and navigate to civil registration (1790 something and later, the start is a french revolution date). i don't think you will find the births certs on the net, but you should be able to find the index, like freebmd. after this point i have no experience, but i know you can order the records, i think it like the states, you order them from the local town hall. googling should help you there.

taffyfrog
11-05-13, 14:00
Jacques Edouard CLAY was indeed registered in Lille - I have just seen the original registration record - there are no other CLAY births in Lille for the period 1833-1842 apart from his . Jacques Edouard was born 22/02/1842 (there is a bit of a discrepancy in the birth year here - see below regarding birth year of Jacques Edmond) - at 10 am to Thomas CLAY and Louisa JONES, residing in Lille at No 24 rue Princesse. (For interest Charles de Gaulle was born in this street at No 9 but about 50 years later). One of the witnesses was Guillaume CLAY who is named as the paternal uncle of the child and also residing in Lille.The other witness was Charles LARRAD (that's what the surname looks like anyway). The father and the two witnesses all signed the registration. All three men were tulle workers.

Update: Have now found other birth registrations. . They were not in the Lille registers but in the registers of one of its suburbs-Wazemmes. Looks like something happened to Jacques Edouard above and he was replaced by Jacques Edmond below who became known as Jacques Edward (if I've got my sums right - as I said there is a bit of a discrepancy in the birth years/second names of the two Jacques).

Wazemmes registers:

Parents: Thomas CLAY/Louisa JONES
Jacques Edmond CLAY registered 11 Nov 1838
Jean-Baptiste CLAY registerd 9 July 1840

There is also a Sarah Anne CLAY in the same registers for the same 10 year (1833 -1842 period) - let me know what you think and I will check her out but she just might be an earlier Sarah Anne CLAY who died too and Sarah Anne O'Connor CLAY replaced her

Guillaume CLAY turns up again as witness on one of these and this time the name looks like William with the W crossed out and replaced by a G so reads Gilliam - Guillaume being the French equivalent for William

Elaine
12-05-13, 19:31
You are wonderful, been away for a few days so only replying now. Could I possibly ask for the link because I didn't find that entry and would be very grateful for your help.
The Sarah you mentioned, I have Sarah Ann O' Connor Clay born 1847 in Leicester, the last birth I have before that is Joseph Ernest Jones Clay c1842 France from 1851 census, the last birth I know of in Leicester was Emma Sarah death May 1837 if that helps

My daughter talked me through one site so only found the birth reg I believe, maybe I am better running this by you, it's as far as I got when looking but the Lille birth, so used what she told me to find this


http://www.archivesdepartementales.cg59.fr/?go_thesaurus=&thesaurus_opened=&node_start=&start=&open_thes=&close_thes=&select_thes=&unselect_thes=&label_geogname=Commune&form_search_town=WAZEMMES&form_search_geogname=WAZEMMES&form_search_date=1833-1842&label_unitdate=P%C3%A9riode&label_unitdate_pref=entre&label_unitdate2=et&form_search_unitdate=1833&form_search_unitdate2=1842&label_typeacte=Type+d%27acte&form_search_typeacte=naissance*&btn_valid=Rechercher&action=search&id=recherche_tables_decennales

Thank you again ;D

taffyfrog
12-05-13, 22:28
Here's the actual image for the 1842 birth -hope the link works - on second page at the top - let me know if you can't get it - I think you might just get an image of the book cover - but type in page 735 - aagh... it"s not a Jacques Edward/Edouard or a Joseph Ernest - it's a Joseph Edouard

http://www.archivesdepartementales.cg59.fr/?id=viewer&doc=accounts%2Fmnesys_ad59%2Fdatas%2Fir%2FEtat%20c ivil%2FFRAD059_MI_A_Z_2011_07_01.xml&page_ref=184013&lot_num=1&img_num=1&index_in_visu (http://www.archivesdepartementales.cg59.fr/?id=viewer&doc=accounts%2Fmnesys_ad59%2Fdatas%2Fir%2FEtat%20c ivil%2FFRAD059_MI_A_Z_2011_07_01.xml&page_ref=184013&lot_num=1&img_num=1&index_in_visu=)

will send links to others when you're ready

Elaine
12-05-13, 23:04
Thank you, found it by entering the page number, brilliant, also found how to find the original

taffyfrog
13-05-13, 18:06
Glad you found it - worth checking the Wazemmes 'tables décennales' for this period - apart from J. Baptiste (that was p 598 of the registers for the year 1840) and Jacques Edmond (p126 for the year 1838) - think in fact it was the same register for both, there was also Sarah Anne. When you check the Wazemmes tables the registration month might look a bit funny to you - it either said 8bre, 9bre or Xbre (meaning October, November, December). In the same tables there are also another couple of CLAY births but not to your couple but to 'Jean' CLAY (from Shrewsbury) and Ann GILPIN (from Leeds).

Elaine
13-05-13, 21:12
That's brilliant, had a look and found the names yesterday but realised the heading below gave me the birth info so will head to Wazemmes again. Thank you very much for looking, they haven's been easy as they use English and French names but no middle names and sometimes Jones. I don't think my rellie married Isabella the daughter and I have completely lost him as she marries another man. They do figure in the papers a lot, they make for some very colourful reading!

Elaine
13-05-13, 21:28
Can I call on you again please! have found three births and this one

http://www.archivesdepartementales.cg59.fr/?id=viewer&doc=accounts%2Fmnesys_ad59%2Fdatas%2Fir%2FEtat%20c ivil%2FFRAD059_MI_A_Z_2011_07_01.xml&page_ref=193304&lot_num=1&img_num=1

page 625 but my French is not up to scratch as I found the entry for Susan 1840, assume I am in 1840 looking for it (above link) with a date of 25 Dec ?? can see William Clay clearly but looks like prenomms Sarah=Anne???

Elaine
13-05-13, 22:32
Getting a bit better, 21 December 1840...father William, found the index at the beginning of the year, makes it a lot easier:p

that's about it for my French

taffyfrog
13-05-13, 22:49
Rundown of info on this - sorry if it looks a bit dry

Registration date : 21 Dec 1840
Father’s name: William CLAY
Father’s age : 31
Father’s birthplace: England
Father’s occupation: tulle maker
Abode : rue de la Jouissance
Mother’s name: Martha PARKINSON
Mother’s birthplace: England
Mother’s age: 26
Name of child: Sarah Anne
Date/time of birth: Yesterday at 10 in the evening
Witness 1 -Charles LARRADE
Relationship: not a relative, abode Lille – tulle maker)
Witness 2: Thomas CLAY, the child’s uncle

Signed by Thomas and William CLAY –Charles LARRADE declared that he did not know how to do so

Wonder if your rellies knew my hubby's rellies - they were born in Wazemmes around this time - I lived there for about 10 years myself -

Elaine
13-05-13, 23:03
I was just going to go back and have a try, have found their marriage

Leicester, St. Margaret 12-Mar 1832 B
William Clay OTP Bach
Martha Parkinson OTP Spin

thank ever so much ;D

taffyfrog
14-05-13, 05:10
Great when things start tying up. Just ask if you think I can be of any more help.

Elaine
14-05-13, 06:59
I just couldn't work out how to save the page! Really appreciate you looking, spent all night having a look round, shame I am off to work today!

Janet in Yorkshire
14-05-13, 10:18
I just couldn't work out how to save the page! Really appreciate you looking, spent all night having a look round, shame I am off to work today!
Can't even hazard a guess as to what you'll be up to today then! :rotfl: Sorry - misread that as "I am OFF WORK today" !!

taffyfrog
14-05-13, 12:36
I just couldn't work out how to save the page! Really appreciate you looking, spent all night having a look round, shame I am off to work today!

Did you manage as the most I've ever managed was a tiddly screen shot...

Elaine
14-05-13, 20:03
I took a photo with my phone in the end after blowing it up on screen as much as possible then just cleaned it up a bit

16810

taffyfrog
14-05-13, 21:57
I took a photo with my phone in the end after blowing it up on screen as much as possible then just cleaned it up a bit

16810

Good clean up. Before these records were digitised and made available we used to trot down to Lille Departmental Archives - hubby with tripod for his camera - call up the microfiche - set up the spool on the microfiche reader - and take photo. When I say 'used to' I mean about 3 years ago. The French Departmental Archives around France are coming on leaps and bounds these days in digitising the actual records and making them freely available - that's how it should be - these are public records after all.

Elaine
14-05-13, 22:07
It was amazing having a look at the detail, I hadn't discovered the actual entries so again many thanks for your help;D

taffyfrog
19-05-13, 01:00
I am pretty sure the reason your family came here was to do with the textile industry

Elaine
19-05-13, 20:31
I am sure they did since looking, some of them go into the shoe trade on returning. They are only related by a possible marriage but they have certainly been very interesting!

PascalMallet
02-06-13, 10:10
Bonjour Elaine, I just subscribed yesterday because some of my ancestors came from Leics. (Quorn). They came in Calais in the 1820's as they were tulle machine makers and had to escape from England. My great grand-mother was named Clara HALL and was born in Calais in 1847 and she's buried there. My late father began to search for her parents and the only thing he got was a parish record dated 1823 but with very few détails (comparing to what we got here at the same time, but we have not parish records since 1790-1792 and files are much more complete). So I need some help for my researches around Leicester. The family names I already know are Hall, Farrands, Godber, Stanley, and Butler (I found those names in Paris national archives as Clara's father has become French, and also because he protected some ideas to improve lace production). On the other side, I am going in Lille next week as my father's French ancestors came from this area, and maybe I can help you too. I already got all what I can on AD59 (department n°59 archives) website and now I have to go there to search in notary records to find marriage contracts (if any), wills, and inventories after death which are full of information. That material is not in Internet. On the AD59 website http://www.archivesdepartementales.cg59.fr/?id=archives_online there is also something very useful and interesting called "Matricules militaires" where you can find a lot of information about a French man, such as physical details, level of instruction, addresses from 20 to 40 year old (very useful to search for his children), and sometimes if he got problems with Justice. If you are interested, I will tell you how to proceed. Pascal

Darksecretz
02-06-13, 10:36
I just couldn't work out how to save the page! Really appreciate you looking, spent all night having a look round, shame I am off to work today!

Elaine, if you are using win7 type in 'snip' in the searchbox on your start menu. it will allow you to capture images etc straight from where you need them from :) then you can save that image anywhere on your puter. :) x

Elaine ..Spain
02-06-13, 11:00
Bonjour Elaine, I just subscribed yesterday because some of my ancestors came from Leics. (Quorn). They came in Calais in the 1820's as they were tulle machine makers and had to escape from England. My great grand-mother was named Clara HALL and was born in Calais in 1847 and she's buried there. My late father began to search for her parents and the only thing he got was a parish record dated 1823 but with very few détails (comparing to what we got here at the same time, but we have not parish records since 1790-1792 and files are much more complete). So I need some help for my researches around Leicester. The family names I already know are Hall, Farrands, Godber, Stanley, and Butler (I found those names in Paris national archives as Clara's father has become French, and also because he protected some ideas to improve lace production). On the other side, I am going in Lille next week as my father's French ancestors came from this area, and maybe I can help you too. I already got all what I can on AD59 (department n°59 archives) website and now I have to go there to search in notary records to find marriage contracts (if any), wills, and inventories after death which are full of information. That material is not in Internet. On the AD59 website http://www.archivesdepartementales.cg59.fr/?id=archives_online there is also something very useful and interesting called "Matricules militaires" where you can find a lot of information about a French man, such as physical details, level of instruction, addresses from 20 to 40 year old (very useful to search for his children), and sometimes if he got problems with Justice. If you are interested, I will tell you how to proceed. Pascal

Pascal, welcome to the forum. It's always good to get tips on researching in other countries so hopefully your link will help members who might be looking for ancestors from France.

You said you would like help with your Leicester research. Rather than people trying to help you on this thread, and replies getting mixed up with those for Elaine (not me .. the Elaine that started this thread!), can I suggest you start a new thread of your own and hopefully some of our members may be able to help and make suggestions of what Leicester records might be available.

Elaine
02-06-13, 14:58
Bonjour Pascal

I would love to help you with anything in Leicester as I have a lot of info to access which might help so please list anything you might want to follow up. The Clays are in the English papers a lot so any help would be great and I am looking for Hurst's from Leicester too.

Look forward to hearing from you
a bientot
Elaine

PascalMallet
03-06-13, 07:55
Bonjour Elaine, Thank you for your reply. As suggested by Elaine, administrator, I will open a new thread for my own matter, and let you know. About Clays and Hurst's families, I will do some researches but can you be more precise (years, areas)? Though almost all French records are now online, the departmental archives are sorted by town, not by department (same as English counties). As a subscriber to www.geneanet.org (http://www.geneanet.org), I ask for those two names in North of France, and I got no Hurst (but a lot in the East, showing that it could be a German name, with no connection with the ones you're searching for). On the opposite, there are a lot of Clay's. You may go yourself on that website, as there is a English version. Bonne journée. Pascal Question: as my [Return] key doesn't work here, how to do to change line?

Elaine
03-06-13, 19:45
Bonjour Pascal

I do have a lot on the Hursts from Leicester so not to worry with regards to French records too much, was hoping you could keep the surname in mind as you look more than anything. My Hursts are a bit patchy 1800's to 1840, mainly Charles who marries in Suffolk 1809 before returning to Leicester 1810

Look forward to helping you when you start the new thread

taffyfrog
03-06-13, 22:45
To follow on from Pascal - if you know where the event took place (ie town/village)- then look up the corresponding department number -e.g. Lille is in Department 59 so look up 'archives départementales 59' - then all the towns etc will be listed. Once in they are a pure wonder in terms of detail compared to English civil registration -makes you wonder what would have happened with our records if Napoleon had conquered England- in some cases we would probably have the dates and places where the grandparents of the bride and groom died - have also seen this when researching my husband's tree

kylejustin
04-06-13, 02:58
i love it, i have marriages in france in the late 1600's that mention the parents names in the entry. this tends to vary in the departments though. i have some marriages in 1710 that mention parents, and some from that year that don't. you look at the records in england at the same time your lucky if anything more than the names and the date are written.

and birth records are very detailed. deaths in the 18th century tend to be short biographies of people too! their husbands or wives names, where they are from if not from the parish originally, their occupations, and wittnesses to the burial.

Elaine
04-06-13, 09:06
I was amazed how much information they gave and my daugther will be home this week to translate

PascalMallet
14-06-13, 13:28
I was in Lille last week but Archives were closed as they move to another building (same address). So I can't search for anything that time. For your information, it is only open on Mondays and Tuesdays (up to October), but some series are not available. I will probably go again in early July. Feel free to ask me if you can't read or understand a word on the records you already got.

Elaine
14-06-13, 20:10
Thanks Pascal, my daughter did me proud and I'm OK thanks, how is your Leicester stuff looking?

Beagle
19-07-13, 10:28
I too have these rather colourful characters in my tree, but unfortunately my daughter doesn’t speak French and I haven’t been able to negotiate the site further than the Tables Decennales.
Any chance of providing a transcription of the indexes for Jacques and Jean (and Joseph too if you found him).
Thanks.

Christine in Herts
19-07-13, 21:56
Welcome to FTF, Beagle.

If you want to attract Pascal's attention to your problem, you may need to visit his thread here: http://www.familytreeforum.com/showthread.php/103176-Give-help-for-French-records

Having said that, he may spot your message, because he's posted on this thread before, so he's likely to get the bulletin with your post included.

Christine

PascalMallet
20-07-13, 07:24
Welcome to FTF, Beagle.

If you want to attract Pascal's attention to your problem, you may need to visit his thread here: http://www.familytreeforum.com/showthread.php/103176-Give-help-for-French-records

Having said that, he may spot your message, because he's posted on this thread before, so he's likely to get the bulletin with your post included.

Christine

Thanks Christine for leading Beagle to my thread.

Beagle, you're much welcome!

Elaine
22-07-13, 20:04
Thanks for diverting to Pascal, just got back off hols and pm'd Beagle

PascalMallet
23-07-13, 11:14
Good morning Elaine,

I got questions from Beagle searching for Clays as well. Maybe what I found for him would interest you: just see my thread.

Pascal

Elaine
23-07-13, 11:40
Okey dokey!

Will do
merci mille fois