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Mystery of the Two Birth Certs. & a Baptism names of Rostron and Openshaw

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  • Mystery of the Two Birth Certs. & a Baptism names of Rostron and Openshaw

    Details:-
    First Birth Certificate- Born 17/11/1870 at 55 Boardman St.-James Edward Boy Father James OPENSHAW Mother Elizabeth Openshaw formerly ROSTRON fathers Occupation StockKeeper. Informant Elizabeth Openshaw mother made her mark of 55 Boardman St., Manchester. REGISTERED 12/12/1870 at Sub District St. George, Manchester.

    Second Birth Cert. Born 17/11/1870 at 55 Naylor St.-James Edward Boy NO FATHER QUOTED Mother Elizabeth Rostron. Informant Elizabeth Rostron mother made her mark of 55 Naylor St., Manchester. Registered 21/12/1870 at Sub District Ancoats, Manchester.

    Baptism at St. Oswald, Collyhurst, Manchester 1/1/1871-Christian names JAMES EDWARD. Parents names James and Elizabeth ROSTRON of 55 Beaumont St., Harpurhey, Manchester. fathers occupation Stock Keeper. Childs date of birth 17/11/1870.

    In 1871 Census Elizabeth and James Edward OPENSHAW are at 55 Boardman St. but no sign of James.

    My query is which one of these facts is correct. Or will I never find out. They all seem to be a corruption of the truth. Any thoughts would be well received.
    Interesting all different addresses are Number 55!!

    Boardman Street once ran along the north side of Manchester General Cemetery by Queen's Park and Rochdale Road. It no longer exists.
    Cannot trace Beaumont St
    A number of Naylor St's

    James Edward always uses the name Openshaw later on.

    Thanks

  • #2
    That's really tricky. There could just be overlaps of names/addresses by coincidence. Unusual names are all very well, but when they're local, then they can stop being unusual within that area. I thought I had a really easy one when I found I had a "Newman BATES" in my tree - until I found that there were lots if them in the same area!

    Christine
    Last edited by Christine in Herts; 03-04-13, 16:05.
    Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

    Comment


    • #3
      Thanks Christine BUT even the occupation is same for the father when he is mentioned!
      Last edited by holcan; 03-04-13, 16:15.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by holcan View Post
        Thanks Christine BUT even the occupation is same for the father when he is mentioned!
        Only problem with that is that, if there's a family connection, you still can't rule out a shared family talent! Or family connections getting the opportunity to get a job.

        I hasten to add that the overlaps do make it look as if it's the same person with different recorded versions of the same tale.

        Christine
        Last edited by Christine in Herts; 03-04-13, 16:26.
        Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

        Comment


        • #5
          Another thing to add is I cannot find a marriage between an OPENSHAW and a ROSTRON

          Comment


          • #6
            Here is my view on the situation.
            Don't know in which order Elizabeth registered the birth but after doing one she had a change of heart & went to another office to register the birth again.
            When the child was baptised, the vicar asked Elizabeth's name & then the father's name & she only stated his christian name.

            I think Beaumont St is a misheard Boardman St & could 55 have been on the corner with Naylor St? Or she may just have made that up as she knew she was giving false details.

            As you say there doesn't appear to be a marriage but James would appear to be the father of James Edward so the latter would have felt free to use that name.
            Glen

            Comment


            • #7
              Is there any difference in the other wording on the certs? (Sorry, not meaning to give you the third degree - just thinking aloud, as it were!)As you already have possession of copies of the two certs, would it be worth contacting the superintendent registrar of the relevant office and asking if they can throw any light on it? (I suspect that the old records for both sub-branches are now centralised in one place.) I thought a birth could only be registered ONCE, although amendments could be added later and may appear on copies issued at a later date.
              Last edited by Janet in Yorkshire; 03-04-13, 17:10.
              Janet in Yorkshire



              Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Oakum Picker View Post
                Here is my view on the situation.
                Don't know in which order Elizabeth registered the birth but after doing one she had a change of heart & went to another office to register the birth again.
                When the child was baptised, the vicar asked Elizabeth's name & then the father's name & she only stated his christian name.

                I think Beaumont St is a misheard Boardman St & could 55 have been on the corner with Naylor St? Or she may just have made that up as she knew she was giving false details.

                As you say there doesn't appear to be a marriage but James would appear to be the father of James Edward so the latter would have felt free to use that name.
                The first one listed was the first one registered. Which meant that she registered it as OPENSHAW and then changed her mind.
                My thoughts as well were that she did not know what to do and ended up with ALL permutations

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Janet in Yorkshire View Post
                  Is there any difference in the other wording on the certs? (Sorry, not meaning to give you the third degree - just thinking aloud, as it were!)As you already have possession of copies of the two certs, would it be worth contacting the superintendent registrar of the relevant office and asking if they can throw any light on it? (I suspect that the old records for both sub-branches are now centralised in one place.) I thought a birth could only be registered ONCE, although amendments could be added later and may appear on copies issued at a later date.
                  When you say other wording, what do you mean. There are NO crossings out or other amendments
                  I also thought it could only be registered once.
                  I think she went to an another area so she would not be recognised

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The new suggestions do sound very plausible.

                    Christine
                    Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      By other wording I meant the standard phrasing underneath the "filled in" boxes, the bit about certified copies. We were discussing this on a thread on the "sensitive" section and I learned that a slight difference in wording distinguished between a certificate of registration of birth and that of the certificate issued at adoption. I'm told that the wording can also differ slightly on marriage certificates, depending on the type of establishment where the marriage took place. I still think I'd ask the superintendent registrar - s/he will know the score and may be intrigued enough to attempt to unravel your mystery.
                      Last edited by Janet in Yorkshire; 03-04-13, 18:52.
                      Janet in Yorkshire



                      Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Janet in Yorkshire View Post
                        By other wording I meant the standard phrasing underneath the "filled in" boxes, the bit about certified copies. We were discussing this on a thread on the "sensitive" section and I learned that a slight difference in wording distinguished between a certificate of registration of birth and that of the certificate issued at adoption. I'm told that the wording can also differ slightly on marriage certificates, depending on the type of establishment where the marriage took place. I still think I'd ask the superintendent registrar - s/he will know the score and may be intrigued enough to attempt to unravel your mystery.
                        Thanks for that Janet, I must admit I would never have thought there was any significance in the wording.
                        The first one is from the GRO and states"certified to be a true copy of an entry in the certified copy of a Register of births"
                        The second one was obtained from the local registrar and states"certified to be a truecopy of an entry in a register in my custody"

                        Typing this made me think----could there be a difference in a copy from the GRO and a local Copy. Anybody know?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The GRO copies used to be transcriptions from the Local ones. That did open a door to et possibility of omissions and mistranscriptions.

                          Christine
                          Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I know the local office sent copies of their returns to the GRO. Whether they filled out a duplicate register at the same time as they filled out the original and then sent those pages off, or whether they copied out the originals as a job lot every quarter, I don't know. Sometimes mistakes were made during the process and people have described differences between a cert obtained from the GRO and one for the same event from the local office. The local office retains the original - but your two originals were seemingly issued from different local offices..... ETA Christine beat me to it!
                            Last edited by Janet in Yorkshire; 03-04-13, 20:05.
                            Janet in Yorkshire



                            Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              For what it's worth, I have a number of certs issued either at St George, Manchester, or Ancoats,, Manchester and you would not believe the inconsistencies between the local cert and the GRO cert of the same event. The mariage cert of my 2 x GGPs, registered St George district differs so wildly from the GRO copy of the same event that unless you knew, you would think it was two different couples marrying on the same day. (Mistranscribed addresses, wrong fathers, transposed ages etc).

                              Ring the LOCAL RO and ask for their help. If they are in a good mood, they might be interested in the mystery! I have had lots of help from local ROs in the past. You could also email them with your dilemma.

                              OC

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Thanks everyone for thoughts. I will arrange to contact the local office and see if they will help

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Maybe a guy named James Openshaw was the biological father but I don't think he and Elizabeth married, least not if this is Elizabeth in 1881 married to Thomas Thornley, James Edward Openshaw and Alice Openshaw are listed as step children. http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?h...=&pid=10841959

                                  Marriage Jun qrt 1879, Manchester, Thomas Thornley and also indexed Elizabeth Rostron.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Does Elizabeth marry again in Sept 1883 to William Sargent? Poor woman didn't appear to have much luck with her husbands as she's widowed again by 1901! You may already know all this but posting in case not.

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                                    • #19
                                      Yes Susan that is her. As you say unlucky with husbands, whether married or not

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        The one thing I would add regarding the original post is that for a father to have details other than his name, such as occupatin added to a birth cert in the UK the father has to attend the registration of the birth, I am not sure if this applied in 1870 but there should be some way to find out.

                                        Well, in the case of my grandfather Hubert Harries his parents were not married when he was born in 1911 and on the first birth certificate for him, he has been given his mothers maiden name of Taverner, though I can't see the details for this first birth certificate as I was told by Camden registrars in London, that the 2nd certificate re-registered years later in 1926 with his fathers surname and with his fathers details is the only one I can have, all they would say is its strange to find a birth re-registered so long afterwards, his parents married in 1919 so one would have assumed that would be the time to do it if at all. The only other thing is that his father died later in 1926 after a long illness, though he had other older male heirs to carry on the family name.

                                        Has anyone come across these circumstances before where a birth has been re-registered 15 years after the original birth registration?

                                        I know this is slightly off topic but I didnt want to open another thread and it is another 'mystery of two birth certificates!'

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