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  • Cross/Stowbridge in Liverpool

    Hi Everyone

    Have only recently joined this forum and made contact through this thread which came up after a google search.



    I concur with most of what has been discussed on that thread but would like to tie down some documentation regarding William Stowbridge's birth, said to be in 1844. If he was the illegitimate son of Margaret Stowbridge and Thomas Cross who got married in 1845 surely there will be something in the records to show this.

    Can someone give me some clues or maybe one of you good people can find something which points the way for me.

    Thank you in advance

  • #2
    First ...............


    have you got his birth certificate?

    If so, does it have a name in the "father" box?


    Some times, the minister would make a notation as to the putative father's name in the margin of the Parish Register when the baby was baptised.

    Have you looked to find that??

    There might have been an application to the court to get maintenance. Have you looked for that?

    Is there a family bible? There might be a note in there


    In most case, there is NO proof that a putative father was indeed the father.


    and a man who is married to the mother within a couple of years of the baby's birth is most often, I believe, not the father.
    My grandmother, on the beach, South Bay, Scarborough, undated photo (poss. 1929 or 1930)

    Researching Cadd, Schofield, Cottrell in Lancashire, Buckinghamshire; Taylor, Park in Westmorland; Hayhurst in Yorkshire, Westmorland, Lancashire; Hughes, Roberts in Wales.

    Comment


    • #3
      Hi Sylvia

      Haven't got his birth certificate and cannot seem to find it on Ancestry or FreeBMD. I can get the marriage, as above, in Liverpool and I can see him on various census's and these point to a birth around 1844. But so far I'm drawing a blank but being a newbie I may not be looking in enough sources.

      Comment


      • #4
        Brimo, Welcome to FTF and hope you get lots of help here.

        You can contact a member of this site by clicking on their user name and this gives you the option to send a Private message to them, if their e mail address is still active they will get your message so worth a try.
        Familysearch is a free site where you can get baptisms but it is difficult to use when you are new to it.

        I have not got the time tonight to do a search for you but may do tomorrow.

        Edna

        Comment


        • #5
          I have only flicked through the linked thread, but am not sure why you would think that Thomas Cross was his father? He married in the name of Stowbridge, which surely indicates that he knew this was his birth name, not Cross.

          (Wild card: There is a birth for a William CROSS, mmn CROSS, in 1844, but the area is Wigan, not Liverpool).

          Stowbridge appears to be an extremely rare name in Lancashire, and the 1845 marriage is mistranscribed on Lancsbmd as STEWbridge.

          OC

          Comment


          • #6
            Ok thisis what I have got in brief....

            My Father was William Joseph Cross, born 9th October 1900, I have his birth certificate in front of me.

            His father was henry Cross, I have his birth certificate here. He was born 7th Jan 1875. His father is down as William Stourbridge and his mother Maragret Stoiurbridge. But the name he used through life was mostly Cross. Some of his siblings called themselves Cross Stowbridge and others didn't. There had to be a reason for this.

            Now I think that William Cross Stowbridge's father was Thomas Cross who married Margaret Stowbridge in 1845 on 19th April. Thomas Cross then disappeared, I presume he died but I think they had William in about 1844. He appears on the 1851 census (can I put an Ancestry Link here)


            aged 7 years old.

            In October 1868 William marries Margartet Thomas. They have 9 children, three of whom end up adopting the Cross name.

            I can understand this, as I probably would have said, "This isn't my real name, I'm taking my grandad's name"

            But to prove this I need some documentation.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by brimo View Post

              Now I think that William Cross Stowbridge's father was Thomas Cross who married Margaret Stowbridge in 1845 on 19th April.


              .
              I think this is the problem - I don't see how you think that Thomas Cross is the father of William Stowbridge just because Thomas married Margaret Stowbridge in 1845, a possibility yes, but in my mind a somewhat slim one!
              If Thomas was indeed born in 1844 as I believe the census info indicates, then it is more likely in my opinion that William was the illegitimate child of Margaret, which is obviously why you need the birth certificate to prove it. Finding it seems to be the problem!

              Do you have a marriage certificate for William Cross/Stowbridge - if so what was the date of marriage and what age does he give on the certificate - just to work back to help pinpoint his birth year.

              (Apologies I hadn't replied to your PM - have been busy with visitors!)
              Last edited by Elaine ..Spain; 31-03-13, 10:07. Reason: post edited
              Elaine







              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by brimo View Post
                Stowbridge and others didn't. There had to be a reason for this.
                He appears on the 1851 census (can I put an Ancestry Link here)


                aged 7 years old.
                It might be worth working through all the census entries you have for him and try to estimate his year of birth using our "Date of birth estimator" which you will find at the top of this page (just under the navigation bar)

                If he was recorded as age 7 in 1851 then his date of birth would have been between April 1843 and March 1844.

                As we know with census entries, it may or may not be consistent - but you can but try!


                (and yes, you can add Ancestry links!)
                Elaine







                Comment


                • #9
                  Hi Elaine

                  Thanks for your reply. I haven't got a marriage cert for William. I can see the index here



                  If there is no way of seeing a cert online then I will order and pay for one.

                  I will try the birthestimator as you suggested. OOOhh, this is Soooo exciting !!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Sometimes you are lucky enough to find a copy of the marriage entry in the parish register collections which are online, e.g. Ancestry has a huge Liverpool collection. I've had a look and it obviously doesn't cover the church where William and Margaret were married, which according to Lancashire UKBMD, was St. Peter Liverpool. Ancestry has some early entries for St. Peter, but not for 1868.

                    You can order the certificate direct from Lancashire UKBMD - first find the marriage entry and you will then see a reference no. and a link were you can order online - or order from the General Register Office (costs £9.25) If you order from the GRO you will need the reference details from freeBMD or the Ancestry BMD index - it's not the same reference as shown on the Lancashire UKBMD (in case you didn't realise this).
                    Elaine







                    Comment


                    • #11
                      OK, thanks for your replies. I'm now working on getting the documentation for William Stowbridge. I have found his marriage certificate on the Lancs BMD site. It is refrence number 2122LP/54?316 Marriage date is 29th November 1868

                      If I wanted to see it in full do I have to buy it, if I do that's not a problem, but don't want someone coming along later and saying it could be seen here.

                      By the way his age is not shown. It just has "FULL".

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Unless the parish registers are available online - and I've checked and cannot see them - then you will need to order the certificate.
                        If you order from Lancs UKBMD it will cost you £10 - if you order from the GRO it will cost you £9.25

                        If ordering from Lancs UKBMD just click on the reference no. and it will take you through to an online ordering form. If you need to enter a name whilst ordering remember that they have recorded it as STEWBRIDGE, rather than STOWBRIDGE.

                        If you are ordering from the GRO and need help with the reference, then let us know and someone will look it up for you.
                        Elaine







                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Thanks Elaine, I'll order that in a bit. I've also found it on FREEBMD showing up as Stowbridge, William Liverpool 8b. 285

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Yes, FREEBMD seems to have transcribed it correctly! The reference you have given is what you would need for ordering from the GRO - plus the year and quarter.
                            Elaine







                            Comment


                            • #15
                              OK folks, I have ordered that marriage certificate. But cannot find any reference earlier for William Stowbridge. If he is NOT the son of Thomas Cross and Margaret Stowbridge had him illegitamately about 1844 then where is the Cross name coming from in the family?

                              Why do some of the children a generation or so later start adopting the Cross name?

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                When the marriage certificate arrives, let's hope there is a clue given for father's name. If it's blank then it is highly probably he was illegitimate - and likely to be the son of Margaret Stowbridge.
                                We then need to perhaps widen the search for a William Stowbridge birth certificate.

                                Did you look at the ages given for William on the census (and possibly also the death certificate/registration) - was there any consistency which would help pinpoint an more accurate birth year?
                                Elaine







                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Apparently a family member who has been told what the marriage certificate states tells me that Williams father is down as Thomas Stowbridge, a cooper.

                                  Some family members say that he is really Thomas Cross, born 1823 who married Margaret Stowbridge in 1845 but who died a few years later and this is where the Cross element came in.

                                  William's birth date appears to have been about 1843 although one census return gives a wrong date but I'm told this can happen if he wasn't at home when the census was filled in.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    It was very common for someone who was born illegitimate to make up a father's name at the time of their marriage. He used the forename of the man who married his mother, combined with his birth surname of Stowbridge. I have many similar examples in my tree of father's names being made up. If he REALLY WAS the natural son of Thomas Cross, then why didn't he put his name on his marriage cert?

                                    The use of the Cross surname for the younger siblings is because that is what their surname was! Their mother married Thomas Cross and her surname was therefore Cross from that point onwards. I wouldn't get too hung up on surnames as they quite often aren't very significant and just illustrate the surname that someone was known by, where they lived.

                                    OC

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Is this a possibility ?...if not ...sorry for leading you on the wrong path
                                      baptism
                                      13th May 1846 at St Peters ,Liverpool
                                      Thomas Cross
                                      child of Thomas and Margaret
                                      abode Cavendish Street
                                      occ Labourer

                                      allan
                                      added on www.lan-opc.org.uk/Search/indexp.html
                                      Last edited by garstonite; 02-04-13, 12:13.
                                      Allan ......... researching oakes/anyon/standish/collins/hartley/barker/collins-cheshire
                                      oakes/tipping/ellis/jones/schacht/...garston, liverpool
                                      adams-shropshire/roberts-welshpool
                                      merrick/lewis/stringham/nicolls-herefordshire
                                      coxon/williamson/kay/weaver-glossop/stockport/walker-gorton

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        thomas and margaret married too late to be the child's father. many marriage entries record the wrong father's name. my great great grandfather was the son of joseph, but the marriage states richard (who was the brother in law who witnessed). an aunt gave her maternal grandfather on hers, etc.

                                        he legally would have been entitled to use the surname 'cross' after his mother's marriage. there's plenty of people who use step parents names. my own ancestor was born a poole, mother remarried, and he went by her husbands name of 'ford', which the family still use. my own surname is not really 'mine', my father was adopted by grandma's second husband, so that's where my name comes from.

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