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Yet another Jewish question

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  • Yet another Jewish question

    Can any of our experienced Jewish researchers help me with this one, please. Why did so many Jews who had the surname of Asher settle in Notts ?

    Let me explain what I mean. Of course there were Jews living there already, but the first real "wave" of Jewish immigration into Nottm in modern times came after a battle near Warsaw between the Poles & the Russians at the end of the eighteenth century. The Russians had recruited large numbers of Lithuanian Jews to use as their cat's paw & abandoned them to their fate in Warsaw when they withdrew. The Poles rounded on them & on Polish Jews, too...it developed into a "revenge attack" on Jews in general. A Jew in Nottingham systematically brought over numbers of these Jews to work as hawkers. This would fit in with my own Asher family history (though, obviously, I don't know for sure if they were part of that)

    Bearing in mind that the Jewish naming system didn't work like the English non Jewish naming system (eg in Newcastle where the name of Henderson is/was so widespread), how did it happen that, as soon as they were settled, there were so many Ashers ? Many Jewish families already living there (I've traced them back to 1720 & could easily carry on) had the surname of Asher, but that could be explained by the fact that they had anglicised their names & no longer used the Jewish naming system & had increased in number.. But so many of these new arrivals had the surname of Asher.....far, far more than anywhere else (eg London) I can't find an Asher who was a prominent member of the Jewish community in Nottm, but it would seem to be an incredible coincidence if their families had used the Jewish naming system in Eastern Europe & so many happened to have the "surname" Asher when they arrived. Is it at all possible that at least some of them adopted the most common name among Jews in the area ?

  • #2
    Grey

    I'm no Jewish expert - you need Naomiatt for this - but it is extremely likely that they just adopted the name Asher as being an identifier of "clan" in order to satisfy the baffling English requirement for a surname. As you know, Hebrews didn't have surnames as we do, so the Asher name would only be used in their eng;ish dealings. In their Hebrew dealings with their fellow Jews they would have a completely different name.

    OC

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    • #3
      Thanks very much, OC....I did suspect that, but I didn't know if it would have been unthinkable. I do know my great aunt used to talk about my father's "great aunt Clemmie" & she was from an Asher family that I've traced back in Nottm to 1720 (& could keep going back) As the first sight I have of Lyon Asher is in 1820 (& he was born "in Germany"), I think she was an honourary great aunt rather than a biological one.

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      • #4
        Just in case you're interested, I happened to see some 17th-century Asher baptisms and burials in Sawley, Derbyshire (near the Notts and Leics borders) when I was looking at parish records today.

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        • #5
          Thanks very much, Mary.....there is a theory held by respected historians that a group of Jews were allowed to stay in Nottm when all the others were thrown out of the country, under the protection of an aristocratic family they'd given personal service to. They were disguised by saying they were some kind of Christian sect that celebrated the Sabbath in the Jewish way. But my lot definitely didn't come over till the late eightennth century, at the earliest

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          • #6
            There is a sect called the Christian Jews, I believe.

            OC

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            • #7
              i But my lot definitely didn't come over till the late eightennth century, at the earliest

              Yes, I mentioned it just so that you know that not all the Ashers in the area were necessarily Jewish; there may well have been Christian families too from a very early date.
              Last edited by Mary from Italy; 17-03-13, 13:36.

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              • #8
                Thanks, Mary.....I didn't mean I wasn't interested....I certainly am. In reality, there are very few "Ashers" anywhere who don't have Jewish roots, even if it's way back.

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                • #9
                  Can you get this book from the library, could be useful..http://www.alibris.co.uk/booksearch?qwork=1934627... http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...5_0_14930.html.. http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...0jewry&f=false http://www.jewishgen.org/jcr-uk/suss...htm#nottingham Any of these provide a clue? Asher as a first name..http://data.jewishgen.org/wconnect/w...ch~model1~GNDB.... http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ection=results http://www.jewfaq.org/jnames.htm Jewish surnames began in 1787 because of the Austro-Hungarian Empire who ordered that they should have surnames and that they should be German surnames. In the big scheme, surnames are quite new for Jewish people. If you put Asher in here it will give alternatives and locations where the name was found http://www.avotaynu.com/csi/csi-home.htm

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                  • #10
                    Big hugs, Naomi....will try to order the books etc, I have got "A History of The Jews in Nottm" by Prof somebody or other, which is where I got the information about the battle between Russia & Poland & Jews suffering from the fallout being brought over to Nottm as hawkers....& the theory about Jews being allowed to stay under the disguise of being a Christian sect that followed some Jewish practices. This sect certainly existed & there was certainly a Duke of Somewhere or Other who had strong sympathies with Jews & this group was established more or less opposite Nottm Castle at the time of the expulsion of the Jews & when he was living there. But, of course, I doubt we'll ever know..

                    It would also be very interesting to know if there were any big divisions between the Lithuanian & Polish Jews who came to Nottm ...but, again, I don't suppose I'll find out
                    Last edited by greyingrey; 18-03-13, 11:03.

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                    • #11
                      Big hugs back! Yes, definitely a rift but not essentially for Nottingham...when I was younger an uncle used to ask me if I was a Litvak or a Pollack, used to scare me! If you google you'll see more on it.
                      Last edited by naomiatt; 19-03-13, 02:55.

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                      • #12
                        Oh, that's interesting. I knew there was a division between the wealthier Portuguese Jews & the poorer East Europeans (correct me if I've got any of this wrong...I want to learn) I was thinking that it might have been particularly strong in Nottm because they were brought over directly as a result as this battle between Poland & Russians who had recruited (pressganged?) Latvian Jews. I shall have to find out which lot I belong to because it might have really serious implications....like which footie team I should be supporting <wink>

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                        • #13
                          they were talking about the first world war today and mentioned some Jewish people by the name of Asscher ?maybe thats where Asher comes from ?

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                          • #14
                            Yes, if you look at that surname link you'll see variations of Asher and the countries where the surname was used. There's a fair bit on line about the Sephardic and Ashkenazi viewpoints particularly in the East End of London. I'm not sure about those times in Notts but sounds plausible.

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