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brianofcava
13-03-13, 10:27
My most persistently difficult ancestral line stops at Esther LASHFORD (1826-1902), and I wonder whether anyone here can help.
We have reliable (original) documents for her marriage (1845) and her death & burial (1902, Islington & Abney Park Cemetery), but we lack any reliable birth/baptism data or parentage. The reliable facts that we have are these:

Born abt 1826, Hagley. (Father identified only as John LASHFORD, Farmer on Marriage Certificate.)
Working on 6 June 1841 as Female Servant aged 15 at New House Farm, Romsley.
Married George JONES 7 Dec 1845 "The Parish Church" Handsworth (no dedication given for the Church itself!).
Living in Allen St, London 1853 (from daughter's Baptism record).
Living at 20 Queen's Place 1861 & 1871.
Living at 414 Essex Road (our family's fruiterer's shop) 1881.
Died 27 April 1902 Essex Road.
Buried 30 April 1902 Abney Park Cemetery (which is, by the way, the most amazing place to visit).

If any of this data is familiar to any readers here, please get in touch with me, as I would like to progress this line back beyond "unknown John Lashford", Esther's father. The name of Lashford is not uncommon in that area of the West Midlands: Hagley, Clent, Belbroughton, Lye, Swinford, Romsley and all those other little villages nearby.

I am guessing that Esther's mother was Catherine TAYLOR, but only because I found a marriage between a John Lashford and Catherine Taylor in 1815 in Clent. And Esther's second daughter (notice 2nd, not first) was named Catherine.

And after we've sorted out Esther, I'll need help with husband George...!

Darksecretz
13-03-13, 11:13
Born abt 1826, Hagley. (Father identified only as John LASHFORD, Farmer on Marriage Certificate.)

where is Hagley Brian? and does the marriage cert/entry offer any useful witness names?

margaretmarch
13-03-13, 12:34
Here's the 1841 census for her http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8978&iid=SALHO107_923_926-0207&fn=Ester&ln=Lashfourd&st=d&ssrc=&pid=13245544
transcribed as Ester Lashfound.

Margaret

margaretmarch
13-03-13, 12:37
Hagley is shown as Worcestershire on google maps and Romsley is just over 4 miles by current roads.

Margaret

margaretmarch
13-03-13, 12:48
How about this one http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8978&iid=SALHO107_923_926-0209&fn=John&ln=Lashfourd&st=r&ssrc=&pid=13245632
living in Romsley and transcribed as Lashfourd with a correction by ancestry user: evetome

John Lashfourd 45 farmer not born in county
Catherine Lashfourd 45 not born in county
Henry Lashfourd 20 ag lab not born in county
John Lashfourd 11 born in county
Catherine Lashfourd 8 born in county
Fanny Lashfourd 6 born in county

Margaret

margaretmarch
13-03-13, 13:27
Here's a baptism in Clent 1816 for a child to John and Catherine no others coming up. https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/ND7K-DDQ

Perhaps you need to check what years are covered by those records and see if you can get anyone to do a look up if there are records not online.

Margaret

margaretmarch
13-03-13, 16:42
Here's the census for Fanny Lashford in 1851 http://search.ancestry.co.uk/Browse/view.aspx?dbid=8860&path=Worcestershire.Romsley.ALL.6.9&sid=&gskw= she's the last name on the sheet - a servant with a retired farmer.

Margaret

margaretmarch
13-03-13, 16:47
Here's John Lashford senior (now an Ag Lab) and son John in 1851 http://search.ancestry.co.uk/Browse/view.aspx?dbid=8860&path=Worcestershire.Romsley.ALL.6.17&sid=&gskw=

John senior shows as born Bellhoughton.

Margaret

brianofcava
14-03-13, 11:06
Thank you for all the work you've put in on this, Margaret, but I don't think it reveals anything new. Your responses deserve a full reply, and I need to think about them carefully, so I'll go through them individually:

1. Hagley is now recognised as being in Worcestershire, but was an exclave of Staffs for some time, and terribly confusing. Interestingly, the name was written into one of the London censuses for Esther as "Agley", and this caused us even more trouble for some time, until we realised that the north London accent had dropped the "H"!
2. The two witnesses (both marking) were George and Sarah Jones - so not much of a clue there.
3. The 1841 Census is the one I had found, which I am reading as Lashfourd but may well be Lashfound. The age corresponds.
4. All those villages that I mentioned in my original note are only a few miles apart from each other - and I missed out a few. We went there some time ago to look at them, and especially to look at Hagley, and we saw that there are still footpaths across the fields linking the villages even more closely.
5. The "other" 1841 Census that you found is my only link to the possible family, but, of course, it cannot record Esther as she was elsewhere on the day. There is a significant gap between Henry(20) and John(11) into which Esther(15) would neatly fit, but it can still be only a guess. Should I rely on these two Census records as being suffucient, do you think?
6. You have found Philip(1816) in Clent, which is a possible, but it's still not Esther! When we visited the region, we spent at least a day in the records office trawling through everything they had there, finding everyone but Esther.
7. The 1851 Census that you mention (Fanny) will not help me in identifying Esther, as her surname was Jones after 1845.
8. The 1851 Census certainly shows John and son John progressing through their lives, and gives Belbroughton as the place of origin of father John, but Esther seems to have been born in Hagley.

We do wonder whether Esther didn't like her Baptismal name, and wilfully changed it, but that seems far-fetched. We've considered possible "pet" versions (Hetty, Etty, ...) but that gets us nowhere, either. The most likely origin for her seems to have been from mother Catherine, and that might have been Catherine Taylor, but I am reluctant to do significant work based on that supposition only. If I could only find a record of her Baptism - but none of her siblings was Baptised either, so perhaps they were all dissenters and I should be looking elsewhere.

Husband George Jones was a brass caster in Birmingham, and then they came to London, where daughter Catherine married Henry George Millo, etc. ...

Thanks again for helping to focus my mind on some of this irritating detail. And if you think of anything further...

brianofcava
14-03-13, 11:12
Julie - I haven't uploaded here any data yet, though I have done so on Ancestry. My own branches of the family (as distinct from my wife's side) deal with upwards of 2000 people; is this something that you would like me to upload? It's full of French Huguenots and southern Italians, I'm afraid, with a smattering of Irish, Scots and even English here and there...!

In any case, can you point me to where I would start the upload process?

margaretmarch
14-03-13, 11:15
Well I would certainly think the John Lashfoun(f)d is the only contender as he has the right occupation and is living in the same village as Esther in 1841. The lack of a baptism is a huge irritation but apart from Philip the others don't seem to come up so maybe they gave up after him.

The recurring name of Catherine is also a strong indicator that this family is the one as I think it might have been fairly uncommon at the time.

Do you know for sure that the records you have looked at cover the relevant villages and time period and so therefore can be treated as definitive. If they could possibly be non-cons then have a look on here http://www.bmdregisters.co.uk/

Margaret

margaretmarch
14-03-13, 11:18
Julie - I haven't uploaded here any data yet, though I have done so on Ancestry. My own branches of the family (as distinct from my wife's side) deal with upwards of 2000 people; is this something that you would like me to upload? It's full of French Huguenots and southern Italians, I'm afraid, with a smattering of Irish, Scots and even English here and there...!

In any case, can you point me to where I would start the upload process?

Have a look here for uploading gedcoms to this site http://www.familytreeforum.com/content.php/848-reference-information-and-how-to-guides

Margaret

brianofcava
15-03-13, 10:37
Thank you for these additional notes on your views, Margaret. All very encouraging, so I'll probably firm up the Catherine Taylor connection. And thanks for the pointer to the non-conformists - I was wondering how I would go about that for the West Midlands region. And I'll also look at your how-to guides for uploading a GEDcom. But Not immediately, as I have to prepare now for a weekend away from home...!
Brian.

margaretmarch
15-03-13, 10:42
Thank you for these additional notes on your views, Margaret. All very encouraging, so I'll probably firm up the Catherine Taylor connection. And thanks for the pointer to the non-conformists - I was wondering how I would go about that for the West Midlands region. And I'll also look at your how-to guides for uploading a GEDcom. But Not immediately, as I have to prepare now for a weekend away from home...!
Brian.

I know what you mean ref preparing to go away - we have been in Spain for 6 months and now going back to UK next week - huge packing project !!
Margaret