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Opinions please - dead person on census?

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  • Opinions please - dead person on census?

    I have tried in vain to obtain my 3xgreat grandmother's death cert. I have applied for no less than 9 certs over the years, none of which have been correct. The problem is she had a common name (Elizabeth Phillips, no middle name), she lived in London (so there are dozens of possible deaths on FreeBMD), and she died sometime between 1861 and 1871 (and the index doesn't show age at death until 1866).

    What I do know about her:

    Born Elizabeth Dalman, 6-Oct-1804, according to her baptism record 5-Nov-1804 St Leonards Shoreditch.
    Married Frederick John Horatio Phillips 26-Nov-1826, Holborn St Andrew
    7 children: George Frederick (17-Jan-1827); Ann Elizabeth Jane (21-Mar-1829); Elizabeth Jane (bap. 5-Oct 1834); Frederick John Horatio (1-May-1840); Ellen (16-Feb-1842); Horatio Frederick (2-Feb-1845) and Frederick William (1847).
    1841: living Henry St, Lambeth (HO107 pc1055-4 j18 p31)
    1851: living 31 Great Wild St, South St Giles (HO107 pc1508 f306 p41)
    1861: living 31 Great Wild St, South St Giles (RG09 pc169 f70 p20)
    1871: Husband Frederick is now a widower, living in Battersea (RG10 pc705 f82 p35). No sign of Elizabeth.

    So... I was looking for a death between Q2, 1861 (since she was on the 1861 census, 7-April) and Q2, 1871 (since husband was widowed on 1871 census, 2-April). I would expect the death to have been either in St Giles RD (where they were living in 1861), or Wandsworth RD (where husband was living in 1871). However there are no likely candidates in the index in either of these districts, so I have been applying for certs in neighbouring districts, to no avail. Now, only yesterday I noticed that there is actually an Elizabeth Phillips death in St Giles district - the problem is that this is registered in Q1 of 1861, i.e. Jan-Feb-March of that year - yet she is shown as alive on the 1861 census, 7th April. I am wondering if the census return might have been filled out several weeks in advance of the actual date, and no-one thought to modify it if she died say at the end of March that year? I know I will probably end up shelling out for yet another cert, but just thought I'd ask opinions on here first, as to whether this is a likely scenario - or if there are any other avenues I could try instead!

  • #2
    I don't think (but I'm no expert) that the form was in the hands of the residents much before the night before:
    "Each enumerator was required to note any uninhabited buildings in his district, and for buildings that were inhabited, to drop off, before the census night, a blank census schedule form for each family to complete as of the census date."
    from here:

    So, unless she died in the few days before, I don't know how that would work out.

    BUT another thought:
    in the 1911, where the form you see is the form filled out by the family, several ftf members have reported that family members were listed that don't belong there (e.g., dead, not living in the house, etc).

    Perhaps she died just before the census, the family listed her anyway, and the enumerator didn't catch the error?
    Last edited by PhotoFamily; 12-03-13, 03:44.

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    • #3
      Thanks PhotoFamily. I would have thought they would have needed to drop off the blank forms a bit earlier than 1 day before census night, to ensure every household had them in time. Would have been a logistical nightmare to deliver a form to every house in one day, especially in those times! But yes for my hypothesis to be correct, it would have had to have been delivered at least 8 days prior to the census, even if she had died (and the death registered) on the 31st March. I guess it's possible that the family had put her down as "deceased" on the household return and the enumerator had failed to notice when he completed his summary sheet - unfortunately without the householder's returns, we'll never know. Looks like I'll have to buy that death cert! (tenth time lucky???)

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Richard in Perth View Post
        I guess it's possible that the family had put her down as "deceased" on the household return
        The form doesn't ask if the resident is living or dead - so the form wouldn't have told the enumerator, and maybe the news hadn't reached him yet.

        Others will wake up soon, and have much more expert opinions!

        Comment


        • #5
          I can't remember exactly, but the last census we filled in, [2011] had to be filled in on 27th March, but I am sure that we had this about a month before hand, [but of course we had the postal service deliver them, and we then had to send them back in-or fill them in online]

          I wonder how many people actually kept their 'returns' and filled in the online ones? [as well as filling in the paper versions to keep for FH purposes?]
          Julie
          They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

          .......I find dead people

          Comment


          • #6
            I don't know about earlier census, but this 1911 return shows that:
            1) the forms were left in advance
            2) there were provisions in place for deviations from "usual" circumstances



            I think there must have been provision in earlier census for the forms to be delivered "early." My research is mainly in rural areas - it would have taken practically all day to walk to each habitation within a parish (village settlement and outlying farms,) and the enumerators' books show that some of them covered several country parishes as their patch.

            Anything was possible in census returns - I've come across un-named woman & her newborn baby in the room over the stable at the Rectory; named woman in field, named man in barn, and the converse, missing shepherd, not in the family home but as it was lambing time he was probably in the shepherd hut in one of the fields.

            With regards to buying certs, can't you now specify a detail e.g. age and if there isn't a match, they refund the money?


            Jay
            Last edited by Janet in Yorkshire; 12-03-13, 10:45.
            Janet in Yorkshire



            Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

            Comment


            • #7
              Not so long a delay as yours would be, but my 2x gt grandmother Sophia Smith appeared on the 1881 census (3 April) living in Islington as head of household, with her daughter Eliza. Sophia had died the day before so I guess the form had been delivered and filled in early (and left propped on the mantlepiece?) She was buried a few days later so I suppose another possibility was that Eliza decided as mum's body was still in the house she was still head of household!
              Last edited by JudithM; 12-03-13, 10:31.
              Judith passed away in October 2018

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              • #8
                Of the 9 you have Richard, have you got the one below who died in Brixton in 1863? I googled and discovered that it's only 2 miles away from St Giles. She is the only one I could find of the right age. I believe it's the one registered in June 1863 Lambeth ref 1d 272.

                Chrissie passed away in January 2020.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Thanks all. Yes I've had a few oddities on the census as well (people entered at two different locations, people entered as widowed when their spouses were alive & kicking in a house down the road, people entered as single when they were married, etc etc). So this might just be one of those cases. I suppose I'll just have to get the cert to find out one way or another.

                  Chrissie - that cert is one of the ones I applied for. At the time, you could specify checking points and I specified "wife of Frederick" as a checking point and didn't get the cert - so I assume it's not her since *most* death certs of married women at that time generally stated "wife/widow of ...". OK, in hindsight I wish I'd simply got the certs now rather than using checking points, as there's always the possibility that this fact was missed from the cert. However, since hubby was alive at the time I think he would be mentioned on the cert - indeed, if he's not I wouldn't necessarily be able to prove it was the right cert anyway. I also saw the burial on Ancestry and the address doesn't fit with any other info that I have for this family. I never had them in Brixton at any time, though it's right next door to Battersea, where the family was by 1871 so I guess it's possible that they were there for a while between censuses. However given that I also know that the cert doesn't state "wife of Frederick" I think it's probably not her, though the age does match I agree.

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                  • #10
                    I just thought I would mention it Richard As you say though, it would probably say wife of Frederick. It is such a common name that I can imagine what a pain it's been. I know it sometimes gets mistranscribed as Philips too but I checked for those as well and I couldn't see any at all.
                    Chrissie passed away in January 2020.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      yes, tried that too

                      What makes it even more of a pain is that the age at death isn't even in the index until 1866, so there were a few wasted certs on what turned out to be infant deaths, etc.

                      Apart from this one in Q1 of 1861 I've now ruled out every Elizabeth (no middle name) Phillips death in volumes 1b & 1d for the entire decade. Volumes 1a and 1c (central & east London) seem less likely as the family were never that side of town. There's another 17 entries in those volumes so I don't think I'll even go there - much as I hate to admit defeat
                      Last edited by Richard in Perth; 12-03-13, 12:35.

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                      • #12
                        are there not any burials in london for her? I have seen some burial registers on Ancestry, but am unsure what years they actually go up to.
                        Julie
                        They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                        .......I find dead people

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Oh I guess that you have tried contacting the relevant cemeteries nearby to see if they have her?
                          Julie
                          They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                          .......I find dead people

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I've tried the parish burial & cemetery records that I can find that are online - Ancestry, DeceasedOnline, Abney Park, Kensal Green etc. Managed to rule out a few of the FreeBMD possibles based on burials that I did find, but haven't actually found my Elizabeth. There are too many possible cemeteries, too common a name, and too big a window (10 years) to try contacting the cemeteries directly (and how would they know if they found the right Elizabeth, anyway?). Hopefully she will pop up on DeceasedOnline one day as they index more London records.

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                            • #15
                              Richard ... just to encourage or dishearten you, this is my story. I searched and searched for my many greats grandfather's death certificate even emailing to relevant register offices and getting several certificates. In the end I found his burial in the parish records (in the expected place; 1852 aged 86) and I searched again for a certificate trying mis-spellings, out of area, and the lot.

                              I have come to the conclusion that he slipped through the net and didn't ever have a certificate. :(

                              Anne

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                              • #16


                                This could be the Jane Elizabeth of 1865

                                Vera

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                                • #18
                                  clever you Vera that looks promising

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                                  • #19
                                    Thanks. Don't know where that 'Jane' came from

                                    Vera

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                                    • #20
                                      just shows to look for the less likely sometimes, Richard will be pleased.

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