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View Full Version : can you help to find info on Elsie Eugenie Harding Lumb/Wolstenholme



cristabele
10-03-13, 18:42
Trying to find information for a relative on the children of elsie eugenie harding lumb, Lumb is her maiden name, she was born in Macclesfield and her parents were Sidney and Annie Eugenie and all children were born out of wedlock, an older relative thinks the children may have had different fathers. They were born in north Manchester and Prestwich Lancashire.
Can you help with any connection via your family tree or advice on where else I might search for the birth fathers if that is at all possible.

they were:
Sidney Lumb born 1919
Richard Harold L Lumb born 1920
living child born 1923
living child born 1926
Ronald Lumb born 1929

The childrens surnames were changed to Wolstenholme either by deed poll or adoption, I have looked on the London Gazette but could not find a record of the deed poll name change.

We believe Elsie married Peter Wolstenholme in 1931 he was age 67 and he died 1935 age 71

Peter had been married to Mary J who died in 1930

Elsie married again to a William H Fricker in 1936

Elaine ..Spain
10-03-13, 19:24
Cristabele,
firstly welcome to Family Tree Forum.

I have had to edit your post as we do not allow the posting of information which relates to living people - and there is no indication in your post as to whether the children named are deceased. If they are then you can edit your post and re-add the names.
If they are still living then if someone is able to help they will contact you via PM (personal message) so that you can give them the necessary information.

Elaine ..Spain
10-03-13, 21:33
Thanks for the message Cristabele and for confirming that three of the children are known to be deceased.

What sort of information are you looking for. Is it just to find out the name of birth father for these children - if so I would have thought you really need to get their birth certificates.

Also you say that the surnames were changed by deed poll or adoption. I wonder if it was neither, and they just changed their name to their step father's name - which is quite legal. You can call yourself anything you wish as long as it is not for illegal purposes.

margaretmarch
11-03-13, 07:22
Looking at the details you have given it seems to me that perhaps Elsie and Peter lived together as a married couple but we're only able to get married when his wife died. Divorce would have been expensive in those days so Peter may not have bothered.

As Elaine has said the only way to find a father's name is from a birth certificate so you need to know the reference details from the BMD index. Try www.freebmd.org.uk
Margaret

margaretmarch
11-03-13, 07:47
Sidney Lumb
Mother's Maiden Surname: Lumb
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1919
Registration district: Prestwich
Inferred County: Yorkshire North Riding
Volume Number: 9d
Page Number: 448

Richard H L Lumb
Mother's Maiden Surname: Lumb
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1920
Registration district: Prestwich
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume Number: 8d
Page Number: 663

Ronald Lumb
Mother's Maiden Surname: Lumb
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1929
Registration district: Manchester North
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume Number: 8d
Page Number: 708


Having found these entries it is clear that Elsie registered the children as an unmarried woman so it is unlikely that you will see any names entered for their fathers. You might like to check one to be sure so use one set of details to order a certificate - cost £9.25 from https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp

Margaret

cristabele
11-03-13, 13:08
thank you for your replies.

one of the deceased persons has a passport in the name of wolstenholme so I thought the name had been changed legally and he also married under the name of wolstenholme.

I have asked another relative if they can look for the marriage and birth certificate in a box of old documents and if they cannot find them will order one birth certificate.

one of the children is still living and has a clear mind but has said she cannot remember any of her childhood, after all it was her mother and it was shameful in their time so its understanding but frustrating. I am going to write to her and explain that most of this information is available to the public online now that she has had time to think about it may just help, I know she also has the old family photos but says she doesnt.

yes I was trying to find out who the birth father was and it may not be on the birth certificate but if Peter and Elsie had been living together then surely he would have been willing to have his name on the certificate.

last night I discovered some cousins with the name Lumb in the same area as the family were living, bit worried that they may also refuse to talk abbout it but I can only ask.

Uncle John
11-03-13, 13:14
A person can call themself by any name they choose, so long as there's no intention to deceive.

margaretmarch
11-03-13, 13:59
thank you for your replies.

one of the deceased persons has a passport in the name of wolstenholme so I thought the name had been changed legally and he also married under the name of wolstenholme.

I have asked another relative if they can look for the marriage and birth certificate in a box of old documents and if they cannot find them will order one birth certificate.

one of the children is still living and has a clear mind but has said she cannot remember any of her childhood, after all it was her mother and it was shameful in their time so its understanding but frustrating. I am going to write to her and explain that most of this information is available to the public online now that she has had time to think about it may just help, I know she also has the old family photos but says she doesnt.

yes I was trying to find out who the birth father was and it may not be on the birth certificate but if Peter and Elsie had been living together then surely he would have been willing to have his name on the certificate.

last night I discovered some cousins with the name Lumb in the same area as the family were living, bit worried that they may also refuse to talk abbout it but I can only ask.

If you have or get an address for Elsie you could check the local library for the electoral register for the relevant years to see if they were together over the whole period of the births.

If he was already married he might not have thought he could put his name on the registrations. It may be it is noted but it's unlikely because the surname for someone is taken from the mother if no other name is given - the actual registration shows only the given names and the surname is assumed from the name in the father column unless there is none in which case it goes from the mother column.

If Mr Wolstenholme is not father there is unlikely to be a father's name anyway. I would look at the certificate for the one with extra initials becaue sometimes the mother give the father's name but disguised as second and third names for the child eg registrations for Tom Fred Smith with mother's name Jones = Tom Jones but with Fred Smith as the likely father.

Margaret

cristabele
11-03-13, 15:16
thank you, never thought of the electoral roll, I will be in that area in a few weeks and I do have 2 addresses of where they lived, will find out where the registers are kept and access to them.
The one with the extra initials was called Richard Harold Lane Wolstenholme so it looks like Harold Lane could be his dad.

margaretmarch
11-03-13, 15:56
thank you, never thought of the electoral roll, I will be in that area in a few weeks and I do have 2 addresses of where they lived, will find out where the registers are kept and access to them.
The one with the extra initials was called Richard Harold Lane Wolstenholme so it looks like Harold Lane could be his dad.

Harold Lane sounds a possibility unless Lane is a surname in Elsie's family - say a grandmother's maiden name.

Won't work so well for the others as they don't appear to have middle names.

I guess the registers might be kept in Central Library, Manchester but don't know for sure, good idea to check.

Margaret

cristabele
12-04-13, 16:37
update
I could not find Elsie Eugene Harding Lumb at any of the addresses I had from 1920 to 1929 but did find her there 1930, children of course were not listed because they were too young to vote.
Lane is not anywhere in the family history.

Apparently her mother Annie Lumb had said no daughter of mine is getting married, she died 1931 the same year Elsie married Peter Wolstenholme.the landlady at the local pub had said she was the local pro.

I have obtained the birth certificate of Harold, no birth father but in the margin is written he was adopted, no name or dates.

Her daughter who is still alive refused to give us any details of the birth fathers despite her telling me she has a lot of information and said it is part of the past, she said someone else wanted this information and I saw her off as well.

she even refused to tell her own brother who his birth father was before he died, selfish selfish woman.

I am waiting for some information from the war office regarding Harold Wolstenholme, he was on HMS Nadder that escorted the convoy throught the Gibralter straits keeping the subs at bay and they were involved in the resue of survivors a from British Merchant Troilus after a U boat attack 10 sept 1944. we are very proud of him
.

margaretmarch
14-04-13, 17:35
update
I could not find Elsie Eugene Harding Lumb at any of the addresses I had from 1920 to 1929 but did find her there 1930, children of course were not listed because they were too young to vote.
Lane is not anywhere in the family history.

Apparently her mother Annie Lumb had said no daughter of mine is getting married, she died 1931 the same year Elsie married Peter Wolstenholme.the landlady at the local pub had said she was the local pro.

I have obtained the birth certificate of Harold, no birth father but in the margin is written he was adopted, no name or dates.

Her daughter who is still alive refused to give us any details of the birth fathers despite her telling me she has a lot of information and said it is part of the past, she said someone else wanted this information and I saw her off as well.

she even refused to tell her own brother who his birth father was before he died, selfish selfish woman.

I am waiting for some information from the war office regarding Harold Wolstenholme, he was on HMS Nadder that escorted the convoy throught the Gibralter straits keeping the subs at bay and they were involved in the resue of survivors a from British Merchant Troilus after a U boat attack 10 sept 1944. we are very proud of him
.

Thanks for giving us an update and sorry to hear you have not been able to find out what you wanted.

However if Harold's birth certificate shows adopted then his name would have changed at that point. I am guessing that his father adopted him after the marriage to Elsie as this would be the only way to secure parental rights. The Birth Register does not give any details of adoption and the Registrar is the only one who can link the new name with the registered one through the Adoption Register which also does not link back to the original birth entry.

Maybe the same happened for the others who took the name Wolstenholme.

Margaret

Debboid
27-04-13, 18:44
Hello Cristabel,

I am the Great Grandaughter of Sydney Harold Harding Lumb. I have sent you a private message, but forgot to say that my Mother knows a great deal more than I do, as she knew the still living relative. (my Mum is now 74).

If you need to know anything (other than the Fathers names), just ask. I joined on her behalf, to contact you.

Best regards,
Debboid.