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lennon2011
07-03-13, 21:02
Theories anyone?

I have the birth of Elizabeth Phillips in 1887 to William Phillips & Rosanna blank. None of my contacts have found the name.

I next have Elizabeth in the 1891 census aged 4 living with her parents, Annie- aged 12 (sister) and Sarah Jane- aged 19 (sister) with her husband Mr Allen.

I then have Elizabeth in the 1901 census aged 14 with her parents.

In the 1911 census Elizabeth is a dressmaker, still living with her parents aged 24 but I've got no information after that. Any suggestions as to how I can locate her next? I've tried a marraige search of 1911+10 and recieved no results. I've also tried a death with no results.

lennon2011
07-03-13, 21:17
Birth: Stockton-On-Tees
1891: Stockton-On-Tees
1901: Stockton-On-Tees
1911: Middlesbrough.

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1891&indiv=try&h=679536

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1901&h=29358631&indiv=try&o_vc=Record:OtherRecord&tid=45725931&tpid=6861257453&rhSource=2352

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=1911england&h=35643164&ti=5538&indiv=try&gss=pt&ssrc=pt_t45725931_p6861257453_kpidz0q3d6861257453z 0q26pgz0q3d32768z0q26pgplz0q3dpid

Elaine
07-03-13, 21:18
Sorry had just got there!

lennon2011
07-03-13, 21:24
It's fine. At least the links give you a hint of where to look.

Elaine
07-03-13, 21:31
There's a marriage in Stockton to Rose Swinburn Jan-Mar 1869 Stockton

The next one is a marriage to Rosina Dolson 1887 Jul-Sep

thought I would look for this marriage first, do you have William 1881

Elaine
07-03-13, 21:39
that first marriage has

PHILLIPS, William
INGRHAM, John

SWINBURNE, Anne
TEBBS, Rose

1881 will be a good one to see looking at how many William Phillips there are

lennon2011
07-03-13, 21:43
William was born in 1849, Great Stainton. I have his baptism here. I've cropped it to get the other names out.

16740

Elaine
07-03-13, 21:52
Just found him with the right parents

1881 RG11; Piece: 4896; Folio: 137; Page: 5 with Rosanna

Elaine ..Spain
07-03-13, 22:10
It would be helpful if Rosanna could decide where she was born - Lincolnshire or Yorkshire! :)

lennon2011
07-03-13, 22:13
I have Yarm down as it was the first I saw, I think that's why there's so much difficulty on finding a surname for her.

P. S Was there a link to that marraige?

Elaine
07-03-13, 22:13
Just what I thought Elaine, it's that gap between children and birth in America that I keep staring at

Elaine
07-03-13, 22:14
Was hoping for a link to Durham marriages but have nothing so far

Elaine ..Spain
07-03-13, 22:16
Just what I thought Elaine, it's that gap between children and birth in America that I keep staring at

Same here - and I cannot see an obvious 1871 census for William.

lennon2011
07-03-13, 22:21
So it seems. I have 51 and 61 in my hints but no 71. America maybe? Afterall the oldest child is reported to have been born in America.

Elaine ..Spain
07-03-13, 22:22
1881 census shows a Sarah J Phillips born c1870 America

1891 census shows a Sarah Jane Allen (visitor) born c1872 United States.

Are these the same person?

Elaine
07-03-13, 22:24
Yes she married as Phillips 1890 Stockton

ALLEN, William Charlton

Elaine ..Spain
07-03-13, 22:26
Oops, sorry didn't notice the 1891 census showed her as married! Getting late here!!!

lennon2011
07-03-13, 22:29
They had 8 children according to one of my connections. I had to get the calculator and try to work out if it was the same Sarah.

Elaine
07-03-13, 23:05
Looking at the census returns and found a tree, Sarah is from Rochester and corrected to Monroe, New York by the tree submitter, rather than Suffolk as 1901. No parents given.

lennon2011
07-03-13, 23:09
Did the tree owner have the surname Agar? If it's my connection it should have the usuername blankAgar..

Elaine
07-03-13, 23:17
No it's not, will pm the name

Chrissie Smiff
07-03-13, 23:29
Is there an 1871 census for America?

JayG
07-03-13, 23:30
Is there an 1871 census for America?

No, but there is a 1870 census.

Chrissie Smiff
07-03-13, 23:33
Thanks Jay:) I've got world wide but no idea how to find it?

JayG
07-03-13, 23:44
Here Chrissie

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=7163&enc=1

Chrissie Smiff
07-03-13, 23:50
Thank you again Jay:) Off to check.

Chrissie Smiff
07-03-13, 23:59
I can't find them. There are too many possible Williams to look at them all but no Roseanna/Rosina/Rosena with husband William.

kylejustin
08-03-13, 06:03
do you have birth certs for any of william and rosina's children? this would give a maiden name.

lennon2011
08-03-13, 10:53
Nup I don't have the birth certs. I'm off to Stockton Library to see if they can possibly help me.

lennon2011
08-03-13, 13:34
So I didn't make it to the library, however I'm searching Tees Valley indexes for Rosanna's death- no luck. R Phillips still won't bring anything either. I know we don't have a year range which is why I'm doing 1920+10 and so forth.

Actually scrap that. Could this be it?!

16742

Elaine ..Spain
08-03-13, 13:50
According to freeBMD - that one relates to

Rosena Phillips - age at death 81
Stockton 10a 76

so age-wise that fits!

lennon2011
08-03-13, 13:55
I've also found it on Ancestry as well, age wise it also matches my Phillips, if it wasn't under 10 then it was over 80, sometimes 90.

kylejustin
08-03-13, 14:08
i think you need a birth cert to confirm some of this. it also looks like you need to read up on the coverage for the tees valley site. you have 3 matches there, none after 1927, so they may not be online yet. also 'phillips' can be spelled many ways.

lennon2011
08-03-13, 14:09
I'm looking at the 1911 census again and there's 9 children born but only 3 lived- explains the gap with 41 years of marraige. I'm not sure why but there's a line through William's 41,9,3,6 info. William is 62 and Rosena is 64. So at least that gives us an estimate on the marraige.

Chrissie Smiff
08-03-13, 16:55
Could they have go married in America do you think? Or do you think the oldest child was born out of wedlock, or while mother was in America for some reason.

lennon2011
08-03-13, 17:17
that first marriage has

PHILLIPS, William
INGRHAM, John

SWINBURNE, Anne
TEBBS, Rose

1881 will be a good one to see looking at how many William Phillips there are

I got the hint for this one saying 1869 and i've been wondering if it might be her? Rose Anna Tebbs? But it got combined into Rosanna/ Rosena by accident?

Elaine
08-03-13, 20:56
I kept thinking through the same combinations as Chrissie and still come back to this 1869 marriage, but can't match them up in America

lennon2011
08-03-13, 21:01
Maybe they didn't marry at all. The same thing happened to the parents of William's Neice-in-law.

Elaine
08-03-13, 21:54
Have found some more info matching up a marriage for Swinburne to Ingrham so a definite Phillips marriage to a Rose

Would you believe Ann was from Yarm when I looked:D

lennon2011
08-03-13, 22:02
Really? My female Phillips as I'm now going to call her since we don't know if it is her name changes her location. I've found Elizabeth on Stockton Roots and I've sent of an email to see if it is her by asking if the mother was Rosanna/Rosena blank with William Phillips as Father. Its a good job I have a fair few emails to use as they'd run away if they see my Lennon one again.

Elaine
08-03-13, 22:12
I had wondered about doing that but with the 1869 marriage as that is on the site too and this intrigued me

HO107; Piece: 2315; Folio: 503; Page: 16
a Rosena Tibb born Sibsy, Lincs, the other 2 children are born in Yorkshire and then they are in Yarm 1861 and 1871 but no Ros*
1881 in Stockton

lennon2011
08-03-13, 23:01
I'm doing a birth search for any Rosena's with the 1847 with all the locations in the censuses but i'm having difficulty without the surname.

Elaine
08-03-13, 23:06
Me too, didn't find a death either

lennon2011
08-03-13, 23:11
There's a Rosena Tibbs in London but she married a Thomas Jackson, and then there's Rose Ann Tebbs from Sheffield who became a Taylor. Rosannah Brewster from Boston, Linconshire but it looks like she remained a spinster.

lennon2011
09-03-13, 12:51
I've recieved a reply from the Stockton Registrar.


I can confirm that the father is William and although the spelling of mother is not recorded as Rosanna or Rosena it would still be pronounced the same.

So what does this tell us?
Is it a hint that the name is Rose Anna?
It's Forename: Rose
Middlename: Anna

Elaine
09-03-13, 13:21
Any chance of doing the same with the 1869 marriage?

Surname First Name Middle Name Marriage Date
PHILLIPS WILLIAM 1869 Details
TEBBS ROSE 1869 Details

lennon2011
09-03-13, 13:29
I'm not sure. I can try search for Rose Tebbs on a few other things first. Maybe it's time to get in touch with someone that gave me the Phillips Baptism images.

lennon2011
09-03-13, 15:53
Recieved a reply back-

Hi Sarah,

What you have to bear in mind is that people change their names over their lifetime and may resort to a pet or family name e.g. Elizabeth becoming Bessie when young, Betsy in teens, Eliza when married and Elizabeth in old age. Roseanna, Rosehannah, Rose Anna, Rose Hannah, Rosena and Rose could be the same person just that they may have been unable to write their name or the incumbent of the church may have wrote it down as he thought it was spelt. I have a marriage entry where the incumbent made a remark on it has he had written Dunning but Sarah signed Dunnill.

Have search for birth of a Rose and variants born in Yarm around 1846 and no result.

One main rule is to kill them off so Rosena died between October and December 1927 born c1846 her death was registered in Stockton Registration District. Local death entry reference Book 155 Entry 266. Rather than get the death certificate I would search local newspapers for her obituary this will tell you where the service was taking place and hopefully where she rests as well as names of relatives. I would start first 2 weeks in January 1928 and work backwards as you may see an acknowledgement or notice of thanks first. Tended to be buried within a couple of days not the week gap we have today.

William Phillips marriage to Rose Tebbs between January and March 1869 was actually at St Mary's in Yarm entry reference 253 so quick look through St Mary's marriage register will result in the marriage certificate (I can look this up for you hopefully this week). This will tell you father's names and occupations, addresses and whether marriage by banns or licence (if banns can search for the banns in one or two even three parishes if not from the parish of marriage at time of reading of banns.

Next step was to look for local Tebbs which I found two families on the 1861 census ... one in Yarm one close to it. No Rosena living with them but gap in ages would lead me to think that older children working away from home. Tracing one back to 1851 results inattached.

People do not all know where they where born and may think they where born where they lived as a child. Some in fact lie if they consider the place a 'dump' or causes them embarrasment.

I would not resort to obtaining birth. death and marriage certificates as you will find this gets costly very quickly. Baptism and burial are good substitutes and marriages may have beenmicrofilmed.

Elaine ..Spain
09-03-13, 16:01
Sarah, can I ask who that reply was from?
I have never seen a genealogist make the comment "I would not resort to obtaining birth. death and marriage certificates" - they have to be some of the most important source materials that we use!

lennon2011
09-03-13, 16:02
P.M on it's way.

lennon2011
09-03-13, 16:52
I think this might be William's death:
1922, Stockton-On-Tees, aged 71.

This might be Elizabeth's Marriage:
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&db=freebmdmarriage&rank=1&new=1&ssrc=pt_t45725931_p6861257453_kpgz0q3d32799_m1&MSAV=1&msT=1&gss=angs-d&gsfn=Elizabeth&gsln=Phillips&msbdy=1887&msbpn__ftp=Stockton%2c+Durham%2c+United+Kingdom&msrpn__ftp=West+Acklam+and+Linthorpe%2c+Yorkshire-North+Riding%2c+England&cpxt=1&uidh=6gd&cp=4&mssng0=peter&mssns0=weedall&pcat=BMD_MARRIAGE&fh=0&h=22511332&recoff=3+5+24&ppvrjurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dfreebmdmarriage%26so%3d2%26pc at%3dBMD_MARRIAGE%26rank%3d1%26new%3d1%26ssrc%3dpt _t45725931_p6861257453_kpgz0q3d32799_m1%26MSAV%3d1 %26msT%3d1%26gss%3dangs-c%26gsfn%3dElizabeth%26gsln%3dPhillips%26msbdy%3d1 887%26msbpn__ftp%3dStockton%252c%2bDurham%252c%2bU nited%2bKingdom%26msrpn__ftp%3dWest%2bAcklam%2band %2bLinthorpe%252c%2bYorkshire-North%2bRiding%252c%2bEngland%26cpxt%3d1%26uidh%3d 6gd%26cp%3d4%26mssng0%3dpeter%26mssns0%3dweedall

I did a Stockton Roots search between 1911-1950 and got the name Peter Weedall as the spouce so I searched ancestry for it and it had the most star hits just as the death of William did.

I did a death search for Elizabeth as Phillips and there's one in 1925, no middle name.
No death's of Elizabeth Weedall came up in Stockton.

lennon2011
09-03-13, 18:40
It looks as though Sarah Jane also changes her birth in every census :crying:

Chrissie Smiff
09-03-13, 21:00
I am a bit confused Lennon - it doesn't take much:)
Firstly, although Phillips is a common name and often mispelled I would have thought that the best fit is the birth of Elizabeth Phillips April-June 1887 Stockton ref 10a 56 . This birth cert would give you her mother's maiden name, so one problem solved. The you can go looking for a marriage of her parents.
As for that marriage - it is an Elizabeth W Phillips, so why do you think it's her?

lennon2011
10-03-13, 23:32
To be honest Chrissie I didn't see the W.

I'm going through all the census records and writing the streets down ready for my map arriving and I've noticed something odd.
In the 1881 census William & co are living in 7 bowron St and in 1891 it's 9 Bowron St. Either it's a 7 missing a curve on one or they moved 2 streets down for some reason.

kylejustin
11-03-13, 15:00
it was quite common to move into another house in the same street.