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William Ward - an enigma!

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  • William Ward - an enigma!

    I cannot find any trace of my maternal grandfather, William Ward, after 1919, and am hoping some of you detectives out there can shed some light on him! I'll give details of what I know, and have confirmed with documentary evidence.

    William: Born: 21 Feb 1878 Liverpool
    Baptized: 'William' 10 Mar 1878, St Sylvester's Liverpool
    Parents: Thomas Ward (1850 - 1896) Margaret Downey (1856 - )
    Lived at home up to 1901 Census
    Occupation: Driller in Shipyard
    Marriage: (as Francis Ward!) 22 July 1903 to widow Ellen, late Dennison, formerly Corcoran
    Copy of Marriage Certificate in my possession. Witnesses: John C.E. Whale & Ellen Murphy

    (Wife, Ellen, already had a daughter, Margaret Annie, from her first marriage to James Dennison, 1899.)
    William's Children: James, William, Ellen (my mother), Mary.

    So far so good - except I have no idea where the name Francis comes from! Now the real conundrum begins.

    In September 1915 I have him signing on to join the Irish Guards, he's 'William' here, and his age is 36 yrs and 1 month. Ellen and all 5 children are back home in Everton, Liverpool, whilst he goes off to Caterham in Surrey!

    On the Short Service Attestation, in answer to the question 'Have you ever served in in any branch of His Majesty's Forces?', he replies, 'yes, 4th K L R (V13) T E'. I have done a lot of searching on this, and I think the initials stand for 'King's Liverpool Regiment'. The 'V' probably relates to 'Volunteer', but beyond this I haven't a clue as I cannot find him anywhere.

    I have in my possession a photocopy of a document certifying that 'according to the Register of Marriages kept at the Church of Our Lady Immaculate, Everton. William Francis Ward, son of Thomas Ward, and Helen Dennison(Corcoran) dau. of James Corcoran were Married at the said Church, by the said Rev. on 22 July 1903 in the presence of John Whale and Helen Murphy, and given this day 1st October 1915'
    I wonder why he needed this - to get a quick discharge from the Army, perhaps, for he had only signed on in early September?

    Sadly on 14 November 1919, my Grandmother Ellen (Helen) died from a post-operative gastric ulcer. William's name is on her Death Cert. and he is living back at their Everton address.

    My mother and her sister were placed in Nazareth House, Crosby, nr. Liverpool, on 2 Feb. 1920. According to Mum, they were told some time later that their father had been killed from a fall into a dry dock - he was a shipyard driller and worked on ship construction. I have received some information from the Nazareth House Archivist in Hammersmith that in their Address Book of children's relatives, their parents were recorded as William Ward and Helen Murphy (a witness at his Marriage!) There is no Visitors Book, so they could not tell me if William ever visited his daughters. The two boys, had been sent to live with an Uncle. What happened to William really, I wonder?

    My mother left Nazareth House in August 1925, and was placed into 'Service'. In 1928 she moved to another family where she looked after three children - I have photos of her with these children, which she always treasured. It was from this family's address that she set off to her Marriage in 1933. On her Marriage Cert. her father's occupation is given as Labourer, but 'Deceased' is not written under his name - yet Mum had been told years before that he had died. Was this omission of 'deceased' usual?

    I have searched for his date of death to no avail - there are so many William Wards it's difficult to pin him down, but I'm hoping that now you've waded through his history as far as I know it, someone out there will point me in the right direction, as you've so kindly done before!

    Thanks for your patience.

    Angela

  • #2
    Hi first of all quite a few of mine dont say Father is deceased and he was ,or they say his occuption and he was deceased ,so you cannot really take it as proof he was alive.
    I'm sure somebody will be able to help you more than I can but I shall have a look.

    Comment


    • #3
      I have in my possession a photocopy of a document certifying that 'according to the Register of Marriages kept at the Church of Our Lady Immaculate, Everton. William Francis Ward, son of Thomas Ward, and Helen Dennison(Corcoran) dau. of James Corcoran were Married at the said Church, by the said Rev. on 22 July 1903 in the presence of John Whale and Helen Murphy, and given this day 1st October 1915'
      I wonder why he needed this - to get a quick discharge from the Army, perhaps, for he had only signed on in early September?


      This may have been required by the army in order to pay widow's benefits in the event of his death. By Oct 1915 the slaughter was well under way.
      People: Canton, Wiseman, Colthup, Scrace
      Places: Pembrokeshire, Kent.

      Comment


      • #4
        Thanks for responding Vallee and webwiz - went out for a meal with friends soon after I posted, and have just got back home.
        I hadn't thought about the need for proof of marriage for potential widow's benefits, for he had already listed all the details including names and d.o.b. of all 5 children on his Attestation. So I have a possible explanation for that document now. Thanks.
        Still don't know why he was using the name, Francis.

        Angela

        Comment


        • #5
          wonder if this could be him bearing in mind he was living in Everton Liverpool in 1911 which comes under West Derby Lancashire
          William Ward
          West Derby Lancashire
          Jun 1923
          8B
          446 age 46

          Comment


          • #6
            Even though he had listed his wife and kids maybe the army wanted proof of an actual marriage. Enlisting men could put down anything, and the number getting killed was so huge that it may have been putting a strain on the finances of the War Dept.
            People: Canton, Wiseman, Colthup, Scrace
            Places: Pembrokeshire, Kent.

            Comment


            • #7
              That looks promising Vallee. Have now found the same info. on FMP and GR. I suppose the best thing to do now is to order the Death Cert. to find out if it is him, and also see if cause of death matches up with what my mother was told. Thanks for that.

              Angela
              Last edited by Anglebar15; 02-03-13, 06:34.

              Comment


              • #8
                My mother left Nazareth House in August 1925, and was placed into 'Service'. In 1928 she moved to another family where she looked after three children - I have photos of her with these children, which she always treasured. It was from this family's address that she set off to her Marriage in 1933. On her Marriage Cert. her father's occupation is given as Labourer, but 'Deceased' is not written under his name - yet Mum had been told years before that he had died. Was this omission of 'deceased' usual?
                if I remember rightly the registrar asks 'name of father' when you give them the info to fill in on the marriage cert, so if they took this word for word, they would just give the name of their father, and not offer any additional information.
                Julie
                They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                .......I find dead people

                Comment


                • #9
                  That's true! If not asked the question at the time, how would people know what other information to offer?

                  Angela

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I wonder if the addition of Francis to his name at marriage may be explained by him being Roman Catholic (I'm assuming this from the name of the church where he married which sounds RC to me). Roman Catholics often seem to take an extra, saint's, name when confirmed.
                    Judith passed away in October 2018

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Yes, Judith, you are right. I had thought about that, but I wouldn't have thought it was usual to make use of the Confirmation name only and not use his Birth name on a secular document. I noticed on the copy he obtained in Oct 1915 that both William and Francis were given.

                      However, I'll have a look in the Confirmation Lists now to see if he did take the name Francis, and thanks for that pointer!

                      Have now had a look on ancestry - no luck there!

                      Angela
                      Last edited by Anglebar15; 02-03-13, 16:13. Reason: Additional info.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        then of course Francis could be Frank have you looked under that ?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Thanks for the suggestion, Vallee, but Confirmation names are always Saints' names and are not usually shortened.
                          In fact most people within my limited experience, don't ever seem to refer to this name again as they get older.

                          So I can't imagine why a young man known from birth as William, would get married using another name which, it seems, he never uses again! He's quite a mystery.

                          Thanks for your continuing interest.

                          Angela

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I don't know if this helps at all but this is the Catholic marriage entry for Franciscum Ward and Helenam Dennison



                            Interestingly it gives the addresses of the witnesses
                            Jackie

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              trust you to find that Jackie how very interesting ,I did not even know there were those sort of records on Ancestry.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Thank you, Jackie. Yes I already have that document attached to his tree, and have made use of the witnesses names and addresses. It was from this information that I connected the Helen Murphy named as one of my mother's 'parents' on the Register of Parents, whilst she was in the children's home after her mother died. I looked up this Helen's address on FMP and found her as a near neighbour of Ellen Dennison (nee Corcoran), by then a widow with her baby daughter, Margaret Annie, in the 1901 census. They must have been friends from that time! Hence her being a witness at Ellen's marriage in 1903.

                                The Parish Records on ancestry are an excellent source of information. I have been able to track my husband's family back to the 1700's through the comprehensive Dorset Parish Records, and have even found written notes by a vicar on two Burial Records which confirmed a family 'story' from 1861 as being true!

                                Angela.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Hiya...I live 7 miles from Everton ....don`t know whether you have this
                                  This website is for sale! liverpoolhistoryprojects.co.uk is your first and best source for all of the information you’re looking for. From general topics to more of what you would expect to find here, liverpoolhistoryprojects.co.uk has it all. We hope you find what you are searching for!

                                  Roman Catholic Marriages
                                  1875 ref No 750 Thomas Ward to Margaret Downey at St Mary,Highfield Street
                                  sadly destroyed in 1941 during the Blitz of Liverpool...this was a little way from Everton - so it would appear that Margaret would have lived in the City Centre and used her local Parish Church ....then Thomas and Margaret moved to Everton ...maybe Thomas worked on one of the dry docks toward the North of Liverpool...Langton / Alexandra/Canada dock ??...from Everton to either of these would have been a lot nearer for him

                                  I can only think that during the 1st world War - Thomas Ward would have been quite a common name and that for record purposes if ANY middle name was available - it was recorded to help for identification purposes ???...just a possible theory ....
                                  allan
                                  Allan ......... researching oakes/anyon/standish/collins/hartley/barker/collins-cheshire
                                  oakes/tipping/ellis/jones/schacht/...garston, liverpool
                                  adams-shropshire/roberts-welshpool
                                  merrick/lewis/stringham/nicolls-herefordshire
                                  coxon/williamson/kay/weaver-glossop/stockport/walker-gorton

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Hi Allan,

                                    Thanks for your interest in the Ward family. Yes, thank you I have got a copy, from the GRO, of The Marriage Cert. of Thomas Ward and Margaret Downey. These are my great grandparents, parents of the William who used Francis for the one and only time as far as I can find out, when he got married!

                                    William was the Shipyard Driller, and Thomas, his father, was first of all a Fireman on a Ferry Boat, and later recorded as a Seaman. Margaret worked as a Tobacco Stripper initially, and by the time she was widowed had become a Cigar Maker.

                                    Having looked at recent Google maps of Liverpool, I see that Tobacco Wharf is still shown, and yes you are right the family wouldn't have lived too far from the docks.

                                    However, I was greatly interested in the two links you provided, and have printed off the maps showing the R C churches from the history project site. Thank you very much for attaching them.

                                    The Remembrance site also provided some information I have been looking for, and mentioned in my first post on this thread - that of the Kings Liverpool Regiment. I found one reference to the 4th Battalion which, as I had assumed it to be, was confirmed as a volunteer group, but sadly no records of soldiers.

                                    My paternal family of Everett were also mainly born and brought up in areas such as Toxteth Park, West Derby, Everton, Grassendale, Kirkdale, Walton-on-the-Hill - not a 'posh' area, but in Blucher Street! They were all connected with the docks or Seafaring.

                                    Perhaps I could 'pick your brains' about this area of Liverpool and my family connections with it at some other time?

                                    Angela.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Any time at all you need info of these areas - just ask ....I only know 2 Everett families in Liverpool...one is in Speke - which is in South Liverpool - 2 miles from me ...the other , funny enough is in Crosby .....where you grandmother went as a child ...and of course there was the comedian Kenny Everett - who was also from Crosby ..
                                      and IF I walk half a mile from my home in Garston ,I am in Grassendale ...Grassendale was and is quite an "upper class" area ...maybe someone had money ?....
                                      allan
                                      ADDED...in case you didn`t know - a fireman was the man who fed the engine with coal to keep the engine going ...a very hard physical job
                                      Last edited by garstonite; 03-03-13, 18:25.
                                      Allan ......... researching oakes/anyon/standish/collins/hartley/barker/collins-cheshire
                                      oakes/tipping/ellis/jones/schacht/...garston, liverpool
                                      adams-shropshire/roberts-welshpool
                                      merrick/lewis/stringham/nicolls-herefordshire
                                      coxon/williamson/kay/weaver-glossop/stockport/walker-gorton

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Hi Allan,

                                        I was actually born in Waterloo, and went to school in Crosby. So the family you know of just may be connected. I'll pm some more personal details later this week and you may be able to find out?

                                        Yes, thanks I did know about a Fireman's job on a steam vessel. I'm kind of 'steeped' in the language of the sea as my father was a stoker, and his father a Donkeyman Greaser when his ship MV Cordelia was torpedoed in 1943, whilst on the North Atlantic Convoys run. Being in the engine room he didn't stand a chance!

                                        I've since looked at my records and in fact none of the Ward or Everett families actually had a place in Grassendale. This was the area where my mother was first placed into Service just before her 16th Birthday on leaving Nazareth House! (Howard Drive). She then went to a family in Huntly Road, Fairfield three years later.

                                        Kenny Everett was way ahead of his time, and not appreciated by the older generation - much like the alternative comedians of today. My mother didn't think he was at all funny - my brother and I did! - and she got very annoyed with him taking the name Everett, for she insisted that wasn't his 'real' name! I've no idea whether that's true or not, but I thought he was 'triffic'.

                                        Angela.

                                        Comment

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