PDA

View Full Version : Can't find grandfathers birth.



Cheshanna
28-02-13, 11:11
I have been trying for weeks to find my grandfathers birth details but just draw a blank, the details I have of him are:

Name: Albert Edward Jones.
Born. Bowden, Cheshire 1886 (ish)
Spouse: Hannah Isabel Haygarth
Married: 28/08/1909 Liverpool
Fathers Name: Thomas Jones (don't know anything about him other than he died before my grandfathers marriage)
Died: 15/12/1944 West Cheshire (possibly Ellesmere Port)

How do I go about finding the details - there are so, so many Joneses!

Chrissie Smiff
28-02-13, 11:17
Hi Anna and welcome to FTF:)

What does it give his age at on the marriage certificate please?

Chrissie Smiff
28-02-13, 11:19
It gives his age at death (in Dec 1944) as 59. So if whoever registered the death knew his age for certain it should narrow down his birth a little.

Cheshanna
28-02-13, 11:26
His age on the marriage certificate is 23.

Chrissie Smiff
28-02-13, 11:27
Do you know the names of any of your grandfathers brothers and sisters - i.e. your Great aunts and uncles?

Chrissie Smiff
28-02-13, 11:31
This is them in 1911 - it gives his birth place as Bowden Cheshire and he is 26 -

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2352/RG14_21923_0143_03/5839522?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3findiv%3d1%26rank%3d1%26gsfn%3dHann ah%2bI%26gsln%3dJones%26f2%3dLancashire%26f3%3dLiv erpool%26rg_81004011__date%3d1888%26rs_81004011__d ate%3d1%26f18%3dLancashire%26_80018002%3dAlbert%26 prox%3d1%26db%3d1911england%26ti%3d5538%26ti.si%3d 0%26gss%3dangs-d%26pcat%3d35%26fh%3d0%26h%3d5839522&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord

Chrissie Smiff
28-02-13, 11:36
Someone had put up a possible birth but it seems to have disappeared now?

Anyway, Bowden comes under the Altrincham reg district. So the nearest birth on free BMD seems to be - April-June 1887 - Altrincham - ref 8a 179

That seems to be slightly late though.

Cheshanna
28-02-13, 11:37
I don't know anything at all about him other than what I have detailed on here. Yes, that is the family in the census details.

Cheshanna
28-02-13, 11:40
Would his date of birth be on his death certificate if I got a copy?

Chrissie Smiff
28-02-13, 11:43
I wonder if this is him in 1891?

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=6598&iid=CHSRG12_2808_2810-0354&fn=Albert&ln=Jones&st=r&ssrc=&pid=1747719

p.s. Bollington also comes under Altrincham.

Chrissie Smiff
28-02-13, 11:44
I don't think actual birth dates were given on death certs as early as 1944 Anna but someone more knowledgable about that may be along soon.

Chrissie Smiff
28-02-13, 11:48
I wouldn't be surprised if the birth I mentioned above is the right one. It's only about a year or less out.

It's a pity has father had died before the marriage as his occupation would have been a great help.

Cheshanna
28-02-13, 12:06
It looks very likely to be doesn't it.

Chrissie Smiff
28-02-13, 12:23
It isn't easy with Jones as you know. I found another Albert Edward on the census whose father was actually John, but he had died when Albert was only young. There is always the danger that Albert didn't remember his father or what his name was.

That birth does look a good possibility though. If you knew the names of any of Albet's brothers and sisters it would be a big help though.

Chrissie Smiff
28-02-13, 12:24
Have to go now. I will have a look to see how you are getting on later:)

Cheshanna
28-02-13, 12:31
His father is shown as Thomas on the marriage certificate. I don't know if he had any siblings as my mum didn't talk about him much.

Janet in Yorkshire
28-02-13, 12:38
Here's the family in 1901 - transcribed on Ancestry as JANES. (Shows some siblings and also that Albert began his working life in the mills)

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=7814&iid=CHSRG13_3305_3308-0068&fn=Albert&ln=Janes&st=r&ssrc=&pid=19606265

Jay

angelina
28-02-13, 12:50
I found an Albert Edward Jones born 1887 in bowden on cheshire bmds and crossed referenced it to family search but the parents for that Albert are William and Elizabeth.so thats why i deleted the thread as i got it wrong!!!!
There is another Albert Edward christened 1886 in bollington parents are John and Mary Jones

angelina
28-02-13, 13:01
Sorry just going to muddy the waters a bit - found an Albert Edward Jones baptised liverpool stoneycroft 23 Dec 1885 parents thomas charles jones and elizabeth jones on ancestry's liverpool baptisms.
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=LiverpoolCoEBaptisms&h=1715160&indiv=try&o_vc=Record%3aOtherRecord&rhSource=2352

This one fits in with Janet's find of the 1901 census.

Janet in Yorkshire
28-02-13, 13:04
The 1891 census in post 10, which I followed up in 1901 in post 17 CANNOT be for the correct family - because I've found that family in 1911. The father is still living and their son Albert was unmarried and still lived at home.

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2352/RG14_23735_0275_03/24479944?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3findiv%3d1%26rank%3d0%26gsln%3djone s%26rs_81004011__date%3d0%26f15%3d23735%26prox%3d1 %26db%3d1911england%26ti%3d5538%26ti.si%3d0%26gss% 3dangs-d%26pcat%3d35%26fh%3d2%26h%3d24479944%26recoff%3d1 27%2b128&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord

So, census wise, it's back to the drawing board!

Jay

Janet in Yorkshire
28-02-13, 13:09
Angelina I only have a basic Ancestry sub, so cannot view the bp image. Does it give a profession for the father?

There seem to be at least 2 families around the area with matching names. We need to do more digging.

Jay

Chrissie Smiff
28-02-13, 18:36
hey are living at Dagman/Dagmar Street Janet and Thomas is a fireman. That would fit in with an early death possibly too. I imagine it was even more hazardous in those days than now.

Janet in Yorkshire
28-02-13, 19:48
hey are living at Dagman/Dagmar Street Janet and Thomas is a fireman. That would fit in with an early death possibly too. I imagine it was even more hazardous in those days than now.
Chrissie, are you referring to the baptism entry?
Are we talking Liverpool rather than Cheshire?

Jay

Chrissie Smiff
01-03-13, 11:02
Sorry Janet, yes, I was answering you query about the bp image #21.

Janet in Yorkshire
01-03-13, 14:27
Thanks for clarifying that, Chrissie:)

Jay

Cheshanna
02-03-13, 00:01
My grandfather, Albert Edward, was a butcher and, when my mum was born in 1917, was in the Royal Flying Corps - if thats any help.

Anna.

Chrissie Smiff
02-03-13, 12:43
Do you have the address that they were living at when your mother was born? The reason I ask is in case his war record is available on Ancestry.

It's the occupation of Thomas that would be most useful. The occupation of your grandfather would only help if he was a butchers assistant or something in 1901, as he would only be about 15/16 then.

Cheshanna
02-03-13, 12:53
I think it was 4 Stanley Mount, Whitby, Ellesmere Port. This is the address where she was born and I'm almost certain that she was born at home.

Chrissie Smiff
02-03-13, 12:54
I can't find his war record I'm afraid. For anyone looking - the Albert Edward Jones that is a Butcher and Driver (which made me get excited) and was living at 11 Whitford Terrace, was married to Catherine McDermott and is the wrong one.

Cheshanna
02-03-13, 13:42
I wish I knew which regiment he was in than I could find out a bit more about his working life.

Chrissie Smiff
02-03-13, 14:05
I have trawled through all the Albert Jones, living in Cheshire in 1901, father Thomas or no father present, of about the right age. Non of them are apprentice butchers or similar. There aren't that many anyway. Of course he could easily have started his working life as something else entirely. He may also not have been living in Cheshire.

Cheshanna
02-03-13, 14:17
I am beginning to lose hope of ever finding out about him.

Janet in Yorkshire
02-03-13, 15:41
I am beginning to lose hope of ever finding out about him.

NEVER give up hope, but sometimes we have to re-evaluate what we THINK we know :question: and try to think outside that box.

In your first post you said your grandfather was born in Bowden 1886 ish. As you're looking for his birth registration and can't find it, I presume you don't have his birth cert. How do you KNOW he was born at Bowden? - is there any documentation for this, is it where he was brought up, the family story?

Could he have been born and registered with a different surname, but "brought up" by a Thomas Jones?

Could Thomas have been the "official" forename of Albert's father, but for everyday purposes, and census, he was known by a second forename? Does your mum know the forename of Albert's mother?

AS no-one can find him with what we think we know, it does seem that perhaps we may have one bit of "mis" information and need another clue to help us search along another route.

Jay

Chrissie Smiff
02-03-13, 17:31
Janet is right - never give up:) I thought I would never find my hubby's grandfather, until years later and lots of research and help, I discovered that he was born under a different surname and brought up by a stepfather who had the name he always used.

Cheshanna
02-03-13, 20:44
On the 1911 census he is documented as being born in Bowden. His father's name is Thomas on Albert Edward Jones' marriage certificate. I don't have a birth certificate.

Their marriage certificate says when he married my grandmother they both lived at 43 Royal Street in Liverpool, the church where they were married - St Mary's, Kirkdale is in the registration district of West Derby, Liverpool. Until I saw the census I always thought that he was from Liverpool.

My mother passed away in 1998 so I can't ask her anything and the only sibling still living is my uncle who I have not seen for years and I don't know how to contact him.

Night Owl
02-03-13, 22:01
Can you just confirm a few things please?

1. What are the names of the witnesses on the marriage certificate?

2. Re the father on the m cert - does it just say "Thomas Jones deceased" or does it give an occupation?

3. On your Mum's birth cert, does it give anything other than Royal Flying Corps in the occupation? ie. does it give a rank or number?

Cheshanna
02-03-13, 22:17
1. Richard Cross. Bessie Davies.

2. It says Thomas Jones, deceased.

3. 2nd Air Mechanic, Royal Flying Corps. Butcher.

Night Owl
02-03-13, 23:04
I wonder whether the best way to go would be to see if there are any surviving RFC records for him. There is a research guide here from The National Archives but its not very clear (to me anyway :confused: ) what is available and whether it would give any more useful information. At least we know he wasn't an officer so that narrows it down a bit

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/looking-for-person/royalflyingcorpsairmen.htm

Nothing is jumping out at me about the witnesses.

kylejustin
03-03-13, 08:22
maybe you could ask kevin asplin to look into the army records. he is a military researcher at kew, and is very good at his job.

http://www.britishmedals.us/kevin/intro.html