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Vonny North West
26-02-13, 15:39
Life can be so frustrating when finding a census return! I have found the one I want on familyseach.org, have gone over to Find My Past to view the said record, have done the search, result 0. Have been onto to Genes website, done the seach, result 0. A very common name, difficult to find, except this particular John had a very unusual middle name Illiffe (Welsh, pronouce it "ill if". I have him and his wife on the 1861 census taken at Bishops Wearmouth, Sunderland. These are my grt.grt.grandparents on my mother's maternal side. I also have them on the 1881 census, also have John Illiffe on my grt.grandmothers marriage certificate, it would satisfy my curosity to find his parents. Any suggestions as where to try and get a copy of this elusive 1841 census return?
Vonny.
This is what I am actually looking for:


name:
John Smith


event type:
Census


event date:
1841


gender:
Male


age:
7


birthplace:
Durham


schedule type:
Household


registration district:
Sunderland


sub-district:
Bishop Wearmouth, North


parish:
Bishop Wearmouth



Durham

Sherbertrose
26-02-13, 15:56
There is a John smith on ancestry living in Bishop Wearmouth North parents William and Ann. William's occupation is a Tin Plate Worker. Could this be him? No middle name is shown. I should add the age is correct.

Darksecretz
26-02-13, 15:57
can you give his parents names and ages please Vonny.. also a link to any other census (copy and paste the address link of the census onto this thread)

Darksecretz
26-02-13, 15:59
this looks to be the one Sandra and I have found

1841:http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8978&iid=DURCHO107_310_310-0231&fn=John&ln=Smith&st=r&ssrc=&pid=16261629

Elaine ..Spain
26-02-13, 16:01
This one fits the above, but I don't know if it's what you are looking for
http://www.findmypast.co.uk/CensusHouseholdSearchServlet?censusYear=1841&uir=6e20721e5868d5d03c526d0a6a5d9df7&lineNo=17&lineNoSuffix=0&UIRStamp=150bb591f54c1df096de603eaed6256feea0b491d b03610a58ec0160d6411bc75e5f8418f19b5123&pagetype=6

Elaine ..Spain
26-02-13, 16:02
this looks to be the one Sandra and I have found

1841:http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=8978&iid=DURCHO107_310_310-0231&fn=John&ln=Smith&st=r&ssrc=&pid=16261629

That is the same as the one I have linked to on Findmypast.

Macbev
26-02-13, 16:02
Is this the one?

Bishop Wearmouth, Durham
Deptford Lane:
William Smith, 33, tin plate worker, b. in county
Ann Smith, 30 (not born in county)
John Smith,7, b. in county
William Smith, 5, b. in county

Found on Ancestry....oops - too late :D

Elaine ..Spain
26-02-13, 16:07
The 1861 census shows that John Iliff Smith was born in Blackburn, Leicestershire ???

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1861&indiv=try&h=12605784
Piece: 3768
Folio: 24
Page Number: 42

Elaine ..Spain
26-02-13, 16:11
1871 census - shows born Blackburn, Lancs. (that sounds better!)
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1871&indiv=try&h=16805847

Says John J Smith - but image could well be John I Smith
household:John J Smith 37
Mary A Smith 39
Jane M Smith 11
Maria Smith 9
John J Smith 8
Henry Smith 2
Edward C Smith 1 Month

Vonny - can you confirm this is the right family?

Janet in Yorkshire
26-02-13, 16:22
1851 census says born Blackburn too

http://www.findmypast.co.uk/CensusHouseholdSearchServlet?censusYear=1851&uir=bfcf2639db166671e61be43dd04087b8&lineNo=12&lineNoSuffix=0&UIRStamp=b994045717b9f8b496de603eaed6256feea0b491d b03610a58ec0160d6411bc75e5f8418f19b5123&pagetype=6

Brother William has interesting middle name - Venus
Jay

Sherbertrose
26-02-13, 16:27
John's Baptism is on ancestry. He was baptised 17 Dec 1833(Parish Douglas in Parbold). William's occupation is given as a Tin plate Worker.

Sandra

Janet in Yorkshire
26-02-13, 16:31
William Venus Smith. s/o William Venus & Ann Smith of High St, bp 25 Nov 1835 at St Michael, Bishopwearmouth. Father was a tinner.

Jay

Elaine ..Spain
26-02-13, 16:37
Vonny, it's also on Findmypast which I know you subscribe to (so I'll give the link for you)
http://www.findmypast.co.uk/records/parish-records/details/B/303221443?sn=SMITH&fns=JOHN%20illiffe&fnNXF=true&mnNXF=true&rC=2&route=X&locale=en

Janet in Yorkshire
26-02-13, 16:43
Possibly parents marriage is on family search

https://familysearch.org/search/record/results#count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3Aann~%20%2Bsurname%3AIIliff~%2 0%2Bmarriage_place%3Ahinkley~&collection_id=1473015

Also several public trees on Ancestry

Jay

Vonny North West
26-02-13, 17:21
can you give his parents names and ages please Vonny.. also a link to any other census (copy and paste the address link of the census onto this thread)
Hi, I don't know his parents names, hence wanting a copy of the 1841 household. The only other clue I have is I believe he was born in Blackburn Midlothian (hope I have spelt that right!) the same place that Susan Boyle the singer comes from. I have the record office number on the 1861 but not the link I first got it from as I searched this a few years ago, is the record office number any use?
Vonny

SmallTownGirl
26-02-13, 17:24
Iliffe is a fairly common name where I come from. Pronounced eye-liff.

Vonny North West
26-02-13, 17:28
Vonny, it's also on Findmypast which I know you subscribe to (so I'll give the link for you)
http://www.findmypast.co.uk/records/parish-records/details/B/303221443?sn=SMITH&fns=JOHN%
20illiffe&fnNXF=true&mnNXF=true&rC=2&route=X&locale=en (http://www.findmypast.co.uk/records/parish-records/details/B/303221443?sn=SMITH&fns=JOHN% 20illiffe&fnNXF=true&mnNXF=true&rC=2&route=X&locale=en)
Hi Elaine, I know it is on there somewhere, the front search box apears, put in the search, I had nearly 3.000 John Smith's coming up even though I had found the right one. I have emailed the support team and asked them if they could get this record up for me and gave them all the info. So far no reply. I even put in an advanced seach which yielded absolutly 0.
Don't know what to do except plough through all those Smiths - I don't think I will bother. Perhaps a different tack is needed on this one, I will have a look at Sunderland/Durham records and see if that will yeild anything.
Vonny

Vonny North West
26-02-13, 17:30
Iliffe is a fairly common name where I come from. Pronounced eye-liff.
That has brought a smile to my face, this particular middle name was carried on to the Australian branch of the family.
Vonny

Elaine ..Spain
26-02-13, 17:38
Hi Elaine, I know it is on there somewhere, the front search box apears, put in the search, I had nearly 3.000 John Smith's coming up even though I had found the right one. y

Vonny - I have given you a link to the census in post #5 - just click on the link and it will bring it up.
The link I have given you in post #13 is for his baptism, which gives you his parents names.

You say he was born Blackburn Midlothian - which is in Scotland.
From what we have found it appears he was born in Blackburn, Lancashire - which is in England.

Vonny North West
26-02-13, 17:38
William Venus Smith. s/o William Venus & Ann Smith of High St, bp 25 Nov 1835 at St Michael, Bishopwearmouth. Father was a tinner.

Jay
How interesting, what an unusual middle name for a man! Many thanks for that information.
Vonny

Vonny North West
26-02-13, 17:57
1871 census - shows born Blackburn, Lancs. (that sounds better!)
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1871&indiv=try&h=16805847

Says John J Smith - but image could well be John I Smith
household:John J Smith 37
Mary A Smith 39
Jane M Smith 11
Maria Smith 9
John J Smith 8
Henry Smith 2
Edward C Smith 1 Month

Vonny - can you confirm this is the right family?
Hi Elaine, All I can go by is the 1881 census, on this the Illiffe is now Cliffe - I assume the transcribers have done their best, Mary A. the wife, Mary A. the daughter, Maria, and then Edmund, now living at 9 Tamwoth Street Newton-in-Makerfield Lancs. The ages of the remaining children fit, so yes this must be the same family.
Vonny

Vonny North West
26-02-13, 19:10
Is this the one?

Bishop Wearmouth, Durham
Deptford Lane:
William Smith, 33, tin plate worker, b. in county
Ann Smith, 30 (not born in county)
John Smith,7, b. in county
William Smith, 5, b. in county

Found on Ancestry....oops - too late :D
Many thanks for the info. Much appreciated.
Vony

Vonny North West
26-02-13, 19:29
This one fits the above, but I don't know if it's what you are looking for
http://www.findmypast.co.uk/CensusHouseholdSearchServlet?censusYear=1841&uir=6e20721e5868d5d03c526d0a6a5d9df7&lineNo=17&lineNoSuffix=0&UIRStamp=150bb591f54c1df096de603eaed6256feea0b491d b03610a58ec0160d6411bc75e5f8418f19b5123&pagetype=6
Many thanks Elaine, got it! I know there is some confusion over the Blackburn bit, but I have looked at this before and have done a search for places called Blackburn all over the country, but the only 2 Blackburns I have come across are in Lancs and Midlothian.
So grateful for all the help. You are a star!
Vonny

Vonny North West
26-02-13, 19:30
There is a John smith on ancestry living in Bishop Wearmouth North parents William and Ann. William's occupation is a Tin Plate Worker. Could this be him? No middle name is shown. I should add the age is correct.
Many thanks for your help, so much appreciated.
Vonny

Janet in Yorkshire
26-02-13, 19:40
John's Baptism is on ancestry. He was baptised 17 Dec 1833(Parish Douglas in Parbold). William's occupation is given as a Tin plate Worker.

Sandra

Also post 14

"Possibly parents marriage is on family search

https://familysearch.org/search/reco...ion_id=1473015 (https://familysearch.org/search/record/results#count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3Aann~%20%2Bsurname%3AIIliff~%2 0%2Bmarriage_place%3Ahinkley~&collection_id=1473015)

Also several public trees on Ancestry

Jay

Are these two worth checking out?

Jay

Vonny North West
26-02-13, 19:42
Possibly parents marriage is on family search

https://familysearch.org/search/record/results#count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3Aann~%20%2Bsurname%3AIIliff~%2 0%2Bmarriage_place%3Ahinkley~&collection_id=1473015

Also several public trees on Ancestry

Jay
So that is where the Iliffe comes from and also the conection with Leicestershire! I will have to email the Australian cousins and let them know, many, many thanks for finding this, it is surely treasure!!!!
Vonny

SmallTownGirl
26-02-13, 21:32
There's a William Iliffe Street in Hinckley, Leics. No idea who he was to deserve a street being named after him though.

dicole
26-02-13, 22:16
We have lots of ILIFFE middle names in our family tree - our Iliffe family (also Iliff, Heffe, Kiffe, Cliffe, Stiffe, Sliffe and more) and many times the initial I. is recorded as J.
John Iliffe moved from Warwickshire to Bedfordshire and some of his children went to Australia.

Di

Vonny North West
26-02-13, 22:32
We have lots of ILIFFE middle names in our family tree - our Iliffe family (also Iliff, Heffe, Kiffe, Cliffe, Stiffe, Sliffe and more) and many times the initial I. is recorded as J.
John Iliffe moved from Warwickshire to Bedfordshire and some of his children went to Australia.

Di
Hi Dicole, really interesting to hear of so many with the same name which I only came across when finding my grt.grandmother's family. My grt.grandmother had named one of her sons after her father - John Iliffe, sadly this son passed away from tuberculosis in 1914 aged 23. One of the daughter's, Maud, emigrated to Australia in the early 1920's and she gave one of her son's the middle name of Iliffe after her brother. It's nice to know a name lives on!
Vonny

Vonny North West
26-02-13, 22:48
There's a William Iliffe Street in Hinckley, Leics. No idea who he was to deserve a street being named after him though.
Hi, this is why the street was called after him: William Iliffe who first brought Rev William Lea's stocking frame to Hinckley in 1589 and paved the way for Hinckley's emergence as a world power in the Hosiery industry.
For more information have a look at http://www.knowhere.co.uk/Hinckley/Leicestershire/Midlands/info/celebs
Vonny

Mary from Italy
27-02-13, 01:11
Iliffe's quite a common name in Leicestershire.

Vonny North West
28-02-13, 09:02
Iliffe's quite a common name in Leicestershire.
Hi Mary, I have found that the Iliffe name was originally the maiden name of John Iliffe Smith's mother who did if fact come from Leicester, she and William Smith married at St. Mary's Hinckley Leicester in 1827.
Many thnks for your reply.
Vonny

JWT
28-06-13, 07:39
I have a photograph of the (weathered) headstone of a Joseph Longstaff who died aged 55(?) in Sunderland, Co Durham, England.


The headstone also records the deaths of his grand-daughter, Margaret Smith, aged 2y 1m & grandson, William Venus Smith, aged 11m(?) in Sunderland.


findmypast lists the death of a William Venus Smith, 1859, Sunderland, Quarter of registration: Oct-Nov-Dec and this seems to fit with what I can see on the blown-up image of the headstone.


Other Smith surname`s with Venus listed on findmypast and in the Co Durham area:


SMITH William Venus England  Durham, Sunderland 1872
SMITH William Venus England  Durham, Sunderland 1903
SMITH Edward V W England  Durham, Gateshead 1866


Another image which I took is the headstone of a William Venus, died July 7th, 1903, Sunderland, aged 68(?).


The headstone also records the death of his daughter, Margaret, born March 15th, 1822(?) and died May 31st, 1913(?), Sunderland. Margaret was married to a J.W.Taylor.


These headstones are to be found in Sunderland Cemetery (aka Grangetown Cemetery), Ryhope Road, Sunderland, Tyne & Wear, England.


Hope this helps, and if you would like copies of the images above, please message me.


Regards,


Jim

Vonny North West
06-07-13, 17:33
My apologies for the late responce to this thread - I have been away. I must admit I am quite blown away at what you have found, I have had a look again at what I have already. The only reference I have to William Vienus Smith is on the baptism record of his son John Iliffe, who was one of my grt. grandfather's. William Smith is on his marriage certificate as a tinner. John Iliffe married in 1854, and from the 1841 census William was 33 years old putting his date of birth to c.1808. On the 1841 census there was another son called William, perhaps he had carried on the rather strange middle name. I am quite intruiged by this and I will send you a personal message. I keep thinking could this really be the remaining family in Sunderland? There can't have been many William Vienus Smith?
Thankyou for posting this very interesting piece. I would love to have copies of the gravestone images.
Regards,
Vonny.