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View Full Version : Ann/Anne/Annie Brotherton b.c.1845 Manchester?



Vonny North West
25-02-13, 15:41
Hi, I seem to have been looking for ever as to where my grt. grandmother actually came from and where she was born. I haven't been able to trace a birth certificate for her but I do have a copy of her marriage certificate, the certificate itself is a bit blurry as it suffered from water damage during the blitz in Manchester in 1942 where many records were kept fortunately it was recovered. She married on the 23rd of August in 1869, the name of the church is unreadable but it is a parish church in the parish on Manchester and Banns were read. Her age was 24 and a spinster and was living at 24 Victoria Street Longsight Manchester as was her husband Sampson Morris who was a year older. Her father's name is John Brotherton, profession, joiner. Anne couldn't write so she made her mark (X) next to her name. With all this information you might think that she would be an easy person to trace and pinpoint her place of birth, but there is a bit of confusion. The only family fitting her fathers' name and profession on the 1851 census seems O.K. but the age of the child called Ann is too old at 8, she would have had to be born c.1842/43, her birth place on this census is Hulme, a brother on this census is stated as being born in Preston. On the 1871 census, now married and living at 1 Earnest street in Gorton Manchester, her place of birth is Preston. On the 1881 census place of birth is Manchester and now living at 15 Thomas Street Openshawe. On the 1901 census her place of birth is again Manchester and now living at 54 Mills Hill Road in Middleton Manchester. So the confusion comes from the age on the census in 1851 and then the place of birth stated as Preston on the 1871. No record seems to exist of her birth after looking through BMD and also Lancashire BMD. Without a record I can't go back and verify who her mother was or even look in parish records as I wouldn't know which parish to look in. So, any suggestions as where to look next?
Any help would really be appreciated.
Vonny.

Elaine ..Spain
25-02-13, 16:04
Hi Vonny,
Welcome to FTF.
Do you have access to Ancestry, if so you will find a nice clear copy of the marriage certificte in the new Manchester parish record collections.
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=2967&iid=40366_293768-00789&fn=Sampson&ln=Morris&st=r&ssrc=&pid=14484

Just taking a look at the rest of your query to see if I can help!

AntonyM
25-02-13, 16:18
Vonny
The 1851 census gives the parents names as John and Harriet. Both parents are shown as born in Claughton (which is a few miles north of Preston).

Lancs OPC have this marriage at St Johns, Preston in 1834:

Marriage: 19 May 1834 St John, Preston, Lancashire, England
John Bretherton - Bachelor, the Parish of Manchester
Harriet Collinson - (X), Spinster, this Parish
Witness: Margt. Begley; John Rigby
Married by Banns by: Roger Carus Wilson Vicar
Register: Marriages 1833 - 1837, Page 71, Entry 212
Source: LDS Film 94015

GRO indexes than have an ANN BRETHERTON birth in Preston, Jan-Mar 1842 (vol 21, p586), and a Thomas BRETHERTON also in Preston in Jan-Mar 1840 (vol 21 p606), which fits the brother shown in the census.

It must be worth investigating those entries a bit further ?

I wonder whether she knocked a few years off her age at marriage to appear to be younger than her husband (which I have seen a few times before).

Janet in Yorkshire
25-02-13, 16:19
Do you have her parents post 1851 census? I can't see them as yet!

Jay

Elaine ..Spain
25-02-13, 16:31
I wonder whether she knocked a few years off her age at marriage to appear to be younger than her husband (which I have seen a few times before).
Was going to say the same!

Darksecretz
25-02-13, 17:17
Do you have her parents post 1851 census? I can't see them as yet!

Jay

there is this one Jay, which I think is the one Antony means

1851: http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?rank=1&new=1&MSAV=1&msT=1&gss=angs-g&gsfn=ann&gsln=br*therton&msbdy=1845&msbpn__ftp=Lancashire%2c+England&msbpn=5271&msbpn_PInfo=7-%7c0%7c0%7c3257%7c3251%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c5271%7c0%7c0% 7c&msfng0=john&cpxt=1&catBucket=rstp&uidh=lg3&msbdp=2&cp=11&pcat=ROOT_CATEGORY&h=13527022&recoff=5+6+42&db=uki1851&indiv=1

Darksecretz
25-02-13, 17:18
oops sorry I see you are after past 1851!! durrrrrrrrrr... sorry

Darksecretz
25-02-13, 17:20
there is this one 1861: http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1861&h=14455393&indiv=try&o_vc=Record%3aOtherRecord&rhSource=8860

shows Harriet as married but no husband is present.

Elaine ..Spain
25-02-13, 17:23
I thought this might be a possible for 1861 ??

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1861&indiv=try&h=14455393
Piece 2944 / Folio 6 / Page 5

Darksecretz
25-02-13, 18:12
snap Elaine...lol

Vonny North West
25-02-13, 21:28
Many thanks all for looking at this, the only birth registration I have found today if for Anne Brotherton, b.Sept qtr. 1845
Macclesfield. Is this worth looking at further or not? I didn't realsie that it was so near to Preston but thought it was a suburb of Manchster itself. How thick am I? I will look at everything again.
Many thanks for all your efforts, very much appreciated.
Vonny.

Vonny North West
25-02-13, 21:37
Hi Elaine, no I don't have acess to ancestry, I have a large tre on Genes reunited, also subscribe to Find My Past. I use many search facilities and hard copy everything I find - to date 5 lever arch folders full - I am just wondering who to leave it all to in my will!!! Many thanks for looking, just let me know the name of the church!
Vonny.

Vonny North West
25-02-13, 21:48
HI Anthony, I have come across this before but had discounted it, but yes it is worth having another look at. I think my thoughts were that Hulme is practically the centre of Manchester, Annie seems to have been in Manchester all her life, but there again people did move around. The 1851 places the family in Hulme, the first child Ellen being born in Chorlton-on-Medlock which is so near the Town Hall in Albert Square you wouldn't believe it. I just need to find that bit of concrete proof to actually find where Annie was born and find if the Macclesfield regristration is really hers before sending off for the certificate and then finding out I have wasted more money - done that a lot over the years! i suppose we all have!
I do appreciate your efforts, many thanks.
Vonny.

Olde Crone Holden
26-02-13, 00:11
Further to Anthony's post #3 above, Thomas born 1840 has mother's maiden name of Collison, but the Ann/e born 1842 in Preston has mmn of Seed! (Lancsbmd).

OC

AntonyM
26-02-13, 09:39
Further to Anthony's post #3 above, Thomas born 1840 has mother's maiden name of Collison, but the Ann/e born 1842 in Preston has mmn of Seed! (Lancsbmd).

OC

Well spotted OC - I said it needed further investigation!

Still think the Preston marriage may be relevant (IF the 1851 census is the correct family).

holcan
16-03-13, 10:51
The Church is Manchester Cathedral.


Hi Elaine, no I don't have acess to ancestry, I have a large tre on Genes reunited, also subscribe to Find My Past. I use many search facilities and hard copy everything I find - to date 5 lever arch folders full - I am just wondering who to leave it all to in my will!!! Many thanks for looking, just let me know the name of the church!
Vonny.

margaretmarch
16-03-13, 13:41
HI Anthony, I have come across this before but had discounted it, but yes it is worth having another look at. I think my thoughts were that Hulme is practically the centre of Manchester, Annie seems to have been in Manchester all her life, but there again people did move around. The 1851 places the family in Hulme, the first child Ellen being born in Chorlton-on-Medlock which is so near the Town Hall in Albert Square you wouldn't believe it. I just need to find that bit of concrete proof to actually find where Annie was born and find if the Macclesfield regristration is really hers before sending off for the certificate and then finding out I have wasted more money - done that a lot over the years! i suppose we all have!
I do appreciate your efforts, many thanks.
Vonny.

I think anyone born in Macclesfield would never say they were born in Manchester. It is over 20 miles from Hulme to Macclesfield which is in Cheshire and in no way a suburb of Manchester. Preston is over 30 miles away. I expect the confusion of birth place has come into this because people in those days did not have copies of the birth certs and were not required to constantly tell officials where they were born so they don't always know for sure and rely on memory of where they were when young.

I think the birth with the spelling Bretherton is the strongest contender in all that has been found as that does at least occur as a place that has been mentioned in censuses.

Margaret

Vonny North West
17-03-13, 15:24
Thank you for your thoughts Margaret. I was born in Macclesfield, for whatever reason I never did find out from my mum, we had no connection with the town and I was brought up in Manchester. I can remember being surprised when I was first shown my own birth certificate at having been born there. If I hadn't had a birth certificate I would probably have said I was born in Manchester as that would have been the only town I knew as a child. So you can imagine the dilemma I have with this. It really is now a case of sending for the Macclesfield certificate just out of sheer curiosity.

Vonny.

holcan
17-03-13, 15:52
Thank you for your thoughts Margaret. I was born in Macclesfield, for whatever reason I never did find out from my mum, we had no connection with the town and I was brought up in Manchester. I can remember being surprised when I was first shown my own birth certificate at having been born there. If I hadn't had a birth certificate I would probably have said I was born in Manchester as that would have been the only town I knew as a child. So you can imagine the dilemma I have with this. It really is now a case of sending for the Macclesfield certificate just out of sheer curiosity.

Vonny.

For Information. During and for a few years after WW2 Manchester Mothers to be were "evacuated" to Cheshire to give birth. I know because I was a Manchester lad born 1946 and my Mother was "evacuated" to Prestbury, Cheshire for my birth. As Prestbury is a very posh area I am always pleased to announce that I was born in Prestbury !!